Entering The Digital Age

I am in an industry that was purportedly at its last gasps in that the internet was going to put us all out of business. (call it 1996)

So I got a computer back in the days of Cow Boxes (Gateway computers) and then another and then another. I was the first in my office to request online access to my business. It was godawful. MS Dos based. ugh, never mind. But I discovered surfing the web (as opposed to those people who used AOL or MSN. And I found the New York Times online.

Very soon I invented the E-book. I was told by the "tech experts" that it would never work. They were wrong.

Butin those days The NYT had forums. Not particularly different from these. They were established threads, Business, Politics, Technology, Arts so on. I became the go to guy in the business section. I knocked off the old alpha and was routinely thanked by the NYT for my valuable contributions. So I branched out. I wound up in a creative writing forum, a Television forum and a Science and Religion forum (among others).

Science and religion had some of the smartest people I had ever met posting there! I was NOT the alpha in that forum. But I could take some pretty good cuts and I learned a tremendous amount. Then the NYT changed their format mostly to delayed posting and destroyed the conversations. Everything was graffiti now, You scrawled your message on the wall and no one really cared, because your couldn't get into a discussion or an argument with them. So they just scrawled their own graffiti.

But The NYT opened a Comedy forum (I had sponsored a comedy thread before the shake up) Upon which I was a feature. We had a contest for "Late Night Jokes" which were based on the news headlines. I didn't always make it, but I was competing with professional comedians (Will Durst was there among others) And sometimes I'm just not funny. There was a caption contest that I won more often than any other single person.

As far as the business was concerned. The interface got better and I was able to take my computer to the beach house and spend the summer with my family on the beach, 350 miles away from the office, from EO June to Labor day when the kids had to go back to school. The internet didn't kill my business, it gave me independence. Which I took.

I keep telling myself that I'm going to learn to type. I tell myself lots of things.

Anyway that's how I got started on (addicted to) the internet. Meeting people that are much smarter than I much more talented than I (or anybody I run into in "real life").

PLAU
UPD

For me, the first few years, confronting the internet, was a time of utter frustration...with "Dial Up" AOL service....That awful screeching sound and the continuing disconnection

Plus, the fact that I had no serious reason to be on it ....And the fact I was too busy creating and selling my art for the Face to Face shows, I was doing

I very rarely, turned on that contraption.


As I became more comfortable with the computer I was shown how to sell my physical work on the internet

And I got results,....Not much.....but sales anyway.

I joined Fine Art America for the sole purpose of selling originals, and during those early years the site encouraged selling originals...and in every aspect we were on equal footing with POD selling.

What kept me spending a good deal of my time on FAA was this Forum...With all the diverse egos banging heads.


As time went on, because of advancing age, I started to cut out shows....and needed to rely on the internet to produce more income.

It became abundantly clear , especially on this site, that selling originals was no longer the way to go...

That it was POD..All The Way!!......How seductive!.."A gift that keeps on giving"...Not having to replace a piece once sold....What could be better than that??

And I can do it in the comfort of my home.

So I figuratively jumped in (actually sitting on my butt) with all gusto I could muster, playing around with pixels without any idea of what I was doing.

In fact, I still don't know what I'm doing,

But who knows? There's still time.


Oh,in the meantime, I still got to produce for the few face to face shows I'm still committed to do

So once I hit the "POST REPLY", I'll be on my way down to the basement

Came "on board" during the film and no computer age, father had a dark room in the basement, only Social Security and Dr Strangelove had "a" computer.

Had a variety of cheap cameras, mainly for the purpose of shooting pictures at parties.

When my unit in State government (Maryland) got its first so-called "mini-computer" (the size of a school bus, required a special room), I decided to go all in and become my unit's expert.

When PC's arrived, I built my own from parts.

Continued to shoot pictures at parties, have them printed and dumped them in the box in the closet.

Evolved into the web guy in my State agency, built a couple sites.

Became web-app support guy. Learned about building screens, reports and processes, assigned security rights, created security roles, etc., talked to software vendors.

Continued to shoot pictures at parties, but got a digital camera and printed them on 4X6 glossy, for the box in the closet.

Bought a decent camera, started making pretentious "Photographs" (note the capital P).

Quit State service, took up digital photo editing with non-Adobe software (Skylum), and web site stuff to satisfy my urge to see the backside of a web site somewhere. My artistic ambitions have an outlet and I have something to discuss at parties where a disproportionate number of people, compared to a random group, struggle to make a living doing art. Fortunately, I'm not trying to make a living at it, so I can be a true dilettante.

Went out to get some pizza, came home, wrote this message.

In the early 1980s my young wife got a job as an accountant and suggested the company she worked for buy a computer and she would learn DOS.

I was writing screenplays and felt that a computer would be the next step above my IBM selectric, so we bought two Epson DOS machines.

Being an engineer, I got right into it and loved it from the start. Then along came the internet. Even more fun.

I can't image not having a computer to go to every morning. The wife part. Meh.

Even though I still consider myself as a neophyte in this digital universe, I in fact, was the only one in the large architectural firm, I was working at, that took advantage of the 1/2hour weekly access to the computer at Columbia University. way back in the Sixties.

Using it to determine the sectional co-ordinates of the arches I was designing, sure made it easier.

.

Everyone else in the office sitting over their drawing boards,were really nervous about their future, seeing this readout lying on my board

For me it started as a senior in high school, (30 years ago!) when my teacher required that all vocational drafting students spend some time on the new fangled CAD machine the school just acquired in order to fulfill requirements for the credit. I hated that thing, it was an awful set up.

Fast forward three years and I was in tech school where I was required to spend half my time at a CAD station. Computers and CAD software had come a long way in that short time and it was far more agreeable to me. Almost two years later I started my first full time CAD job. About two years later I bought my first computer, got neck deep into the tech, almost lost my head.

I spent a lot of time and money buying, installing and fiddling with hardware and software, even tried to teach myself C++, (major fail!). I learned CorelDraw however and spent many hours making graphic art in support of my other hobbies, (I even won an award). As for the internet my first experience was with a game hosting network which also gave me some access to BBS boards, I never could get into them.

From there it was AOL when it was still pretty much just a portal, a practically closed system with only limited access to the Web. Then I went to Compuserv and my world got bigger. Then to a general ISP and Netscape and now the whole world was available. Then ATT Broadband came along and I spent many hours in online motorsports simulations, forums and buying and selling on ebay and so on and so on. I don't know what any of that has to do with ending up on POD, that's more of an art story.

When I was working in San Francisco in the late 70s, one of my bosses called me into his office to tell me that a couple guys in his computer club just invented a personal computer, and he was so excited. He only told me because he knew I was a good listener, but frankly I did not care. Fast forward a few years, and we all felt compelled to purchase one of those things! I can't even tell you what that first one cost, because it's embarrassing. Many years later, I am finding the internet useful.

you embrace it because you have to. if you don't, you won't know how to toast bread due to the buttonless design.

our first computer was an Atari 800, my mother would enter data code from Antic magazine so we would have games. we upgraded now and then, got a diskette machine, a tape machine a fine ball ball printer. never did figure out what that other slot was for.

our first computer was a home built by a friend that more or less ripped us off expense wise, filling it with junk parts, like a video card that had dip switches that was set to EGA. finding out it was really a VGA card. it was a 386-16, later upgrading it to a 20. it had a huge 40meg drive, cut into two partitions of 20meg each. we had space for days! we never filled it up. i think this was around 1990.

got a marstek scanner, hand held, monochrome that would not stay on track. a 24 pin dot matrix, still have the paper for it. eventually we got a modem, a 1200 baud, phone line thing. no one could pick up the phone, so we had to yell out we were using it. calling local BBS's, gathering new ones in our zip code. we could get programs or message people.

over the years the modem increased from a 1200 to a 2400, then a 14.4, 28.8 and then i think i won a few 56k modems, and that was blazing fast. downloading a 300k file on a 1200 baud took like 3 hours to download, this was faster. somewhere during this compuserve was out, and there was another before AOL, started with an "I" i think. but it was slow, and it was vector based, had no purpose, but it was neat.

when my brother went to college we were able to use the internet, schools had it, we had access to that. eventually the computer was upgraded to a 486/66. then a pentium and so on. eventually i started building my own machines, because we can do that now.

back in highschool i always wanted to own a tablet like device, like on star trek, and 20 years later we have them now.

when the net first came out it was sort of an amazing feeling to just see everything. like exploring a new town. i remember when the Sunny D challenge asked a number of inane questions and you would have to find them on the net. the next clue would be on their site. and at the end you would get gifts like a tote bag. for a while there was the free stuff people gave out and i got a ton of it. jelly belly would give out free samples, it only kept track of the name... i ended up with about 200 bags of those things, making up all kinds of names.. i'm sick of them now. entered contests like one for a psychic - see what they are seeing.... i won all their prizes, they started running out of things to give me.

and now today, i'm on the net, when its off i'm disconnected from the hive. i know how the Borg feel when they are removed from it. the instant fact checking, gossip checking, news etc, that's what this age is.... and 20 years from now, it will be beamed directly into your skull.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

i remember gateway, even went to their store. i still have the cow - my pentium bunny suit guy rides him. ...oh never poke the pentium guy in the crotch, your computer breaks if you do... i find its best to just leave them alone, then scooting them back onto the shelf. my nieces call them spacemen.

i have no idea how to type - but by fingers do.... which is a good thing because many of the letters are rubbed off, and i have no idea what letter is what.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Believe it or not - I was in 'electronics' and among other things worked on the guidance package of the HAWK missile system. Between then and my computer I did a lot of 'different' things - some not related to electronics at all and some that were somewhat related to electronics. Sometime in the early 1980's I got my first, and nearly my very last, computer - a Texas Instruments - could have been a "good" computer - but they dropped out of the game and returned to calculators. Others around me had Apples and one had a Commodore 64. I said, back in the dark ages. over the next 8 years - I did not have a personal computer - but used an Apple II (I think it was - a long time back) or it's betters at work - mostly I diddled with it - and those that worked for me worked with them. Subsequently I retired and went into the 'art business' and nearly went broke. Then I decided to use my 'benefits' and returned to college and got a BFA - 1994 - and had no computer during those 4 years - nor did I use one. Then I went into the "junque" business selling glass and pottery (vintage stuff) and found I needed a computer for spread sheets - etc. and got a desk top (I don't think lap tops were out yet) HP. During this time, I was also doing business through eBay - a computer was a must have, and I learned to print labels, keep records, etc. Then I got a job with JCP and used one to keep track of my 'clients'.

I suppose now I've had a desk top PC, and now a lap top as well, Dell. Everything I know about using one of these things I have mostly learned by trial and a lot of error. With the advent of beginning to sell art on the internet you really had to have a digital camera - so I got me one of those, after years of using film. I still only "practice" using the digital camera - although I now have 4 Nikon's D series, my newest a 3400. I did sell a few 'original' watercolors on line - and someone saw my work and sent me here to FAA. I had/have pretty much given up on putting color to paper and began taking photographs. Photo editing - like marketing - trying to use PS was beyond me, but I used GIMP and another program called Ulead (I think they were bought out by Corel). Then one day I discovered PhotoPlus by Serif - a good photo editing program and I was able to use it for the little photo editing that I do on my photographs, level, contrast, cropping. And then I discovered that I could use those editing features - the other ones - to create digital abstracts by torturing the pixels in the photographs, layering, chopping them up, merging, twisting, turning, and then flattening them into what I thought were pretty good, aesthetically pleasing, works of art. https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/1-roy-erickson.html

I am still no good at marketing, I am still learning/practicing using my digital cameras and photo editing software, and because of a screw up at the computer repair place, they replaced my wonderful Windows 7 Pro with Windows 10 Pro - I'm trying to learn how to use this computer. My laptop is getting more use than ever, it was just for taking on 'vacation', but it still has Windows 8.1 and my Works for Windows still works there - and I hate Quatro Pro that I have with my Word Perfect. Thank goodness I learned to type, touch type, in high school.

In high school I used to program little games on floppy drives with the home computer.

In college one year we had to program our stats homework and send it to the mainframe for batch processing.

The next year we were renting an Apple computer to write our group paper.

A few years later I was dialing up the library to search for books and going on the AOL used camera boards to buy a press camera.

Later at the magazine company I recall one of the editors giving a talk on how useful message boards were to find sources for stories.
....

Today I think people are actually getting less and less computer savvy. Few know what goes on inside those little screens they carry around.

Roger, this was my first PC. I was a land-surveyor in the early eighties and I was not willing to pay for the expensive surveyor programmed modules used in the HP-41Cs, so I learned to program in the version of BASIC offered on these hand held PC. They were very cool but broke easily at the hinge. it was replaces with an 1989 DOS based IBM PC when I became an engineer.

ref: Wikipedia commons


This was the alternative said HP system. it was substantially more expensive AND did not use a form of BASIC. for this reason, I learned the high-level language, then learned FORTRAN, then C, C++ and Visual Basic. Great choice! It gave me a head start as a programmer.

ref: Wikipedia commons

That's awesome Mike!

I grew up with an Atari 800 too- I think I still have old Antic and Compute! magazines lying around somewhere. I used to spend hours typing in BASIC games out of those magazines. Good times. My first modem was an XM301 300 baud modem which I used to access a few BBSes with (I just accessed a few message boards and downloaded some public domain games, not much else to do with it). It would take ages to download a 32k file. I learned how to program BASIC on that computer.

After I had an Atari 520ST, Commodore Amiga 1000, then a KLH 386 16mhz VGA PC clone. For the KLH I went out and bought an original Soundblaster card for it because otherwise sound cards weren't standard on PCs and they just had a one channel internal beeper back then. I had to stick with DOS with that computer as Windows 3.1 ran like crap on it. I learned Pascal and a little bit of C++ on that computer along with playing many LucasArts and Sierra games.

My first experience with the Internet was I think in '93 or '94. My mom had bought a Gateway Pentium 60MHZ computer (BLAZING fast at the time) with a 14.4 modem. I could go and make a sandwich while waiting for a web page to load, there really wasn't a ton of stuff available back then but man did it grow fast. The game DOOM blew my mind on that computer. Nothing before it was as convincingly 3d and silky smooth running.

By '97 I had my own Internet capable machine. That's also when I created my first email address which I still have today.

After that computer hardware became less interesting to me as they all started to look and sound about the exact same save for a few bells and whistles like 3D graphics cards.

Kind of amazing to think of how far computer technology has come in the last few decades.

I had computer science in High School. started with punch cards, then onto BASIC on Radio Shack TRS-80's, still have a couple of 5 1/4" floppies from it that I've kept as props.

Hated writing code so I didn't buy my first computer until 1995, a used Mac Quadra 950.

I basically just like that the computer keeps me out of the darkroom. No mixing chemicals and cleaning up anymore.

David - you hated writing code? Really?

In the beginning, i loved it. It was many years before the corporate world taught me to hate it.

Before the computer there was the calculator

And before Texas Instruments there was mechanical calculator



This is the contraption I used when designing the elements of the Metropolitan Opera House in the early 60's ( as noted earlier, I used Columbia University computer in the late 60's)

Watching all the gears turning was a show in itself.

And before that......THE SLIDE RULE

A 70 year old one with an 83 year old hand



I still remember those horrific days taking important exams when my hand (that hand) locked upon the rule, preventing me from using the slide

That looks like something Charles Babbage dreamed up Roger! I did not have to use a slide rule but I did learn how to use a vernier on a transit aka theodolite which is kinda the same thing.

Let me skip the first 25 years of computer experiences and get to where I had a presence on the internet, which is what I thought this was supposed to be about. So in 1995 I joined a camera club. Everyone had a computer, mostly Macs. Most were doing simple stuff like designing custom calendars for small businesses. Kodak came out with the Kodak CD and I brought some images to the camera store to be scanned. The files were small, but they were suitable for small prints and web use. A guy in the club started a web gallery and asked my if he could uses some images from the CD. I went to his house and he showed me some basic stuff he did in Photoshop like a levels adjust.
I moved to Florida in 97 and took a Photoshop course. I learned a lot but got an F. Mostly because my own computer could not handle Photoshop. But I learned enough to be comfortable.

Around that time I met a guy that was doing a business website that also supported the local National Wildlife Refuge. He gave me a feature spot on the site. The following year I was featured in a book called "birding on the web" due to my presence on that site. I got on to email through Juno and AOL. It would be a few years before I was able to work with images at home but I was networking with publishers and got some photos in a book and nature tourism brochures. By 2000 i upgraded my computer so I could join photography forums. That's where I really learned a lot. I started posting photos on birding forums and soon I was hearing from people around the country who wanted to license images or but prints.

As digital cameras became more common I was reluctant to switch from from shooting chrome film because it was a big step backward in print quality. I did well selling cibachome as well as digital prints from scans. I started working offshore as a biologist observer in 2005 and had to send back photos, so I went digital and never looked back. Soon I joined IStock after they were acquired by Getty. I started uploading there and became exclusive. This was a great learning experience too because every upload got a critique. At the time they said they were going to sell prints, but it never happened. In 2012 I discovered I was not bound to IStock for prints sales and decided to sell prints online. I ended up at FAA. I started selling within weeks. By that time I knew how to get listed in a Google search and attribute my early success to that and to FAA's high Google ranking then.

Now I I interface with bosses and clients online sometimes through apps. I am currently with a photography studio in Chicago and will likely never meet anyone in person or go to Chicago. I work and play in a digital world. It all supports the very real world photography I do.

My first 'puter was an Atari with a tape drive, an external floppy and a 12" b&w TV for a monitor, back in the early 80s. It was all (up)downhill from there.

___________
Susan Maxwell Schmidt
So-so Board Moderator and
Artist Extraordinaire

This is a very interesting subject Roger. So many different POVs, perspectives and levels of immersion into the digital identity we all have. I certainly have used it to my advantage over the years but I have seen many become disadvantaged as well. I seen entire support groups such as hand drafters, and clerical support be eliminated by a single computer savvy engineer. I've also know that I could not have achieved the level of film and animation I have outside of the digital realm. Computer technology is in our face! I'm not so sure this is good for humanity and I'm not so sure humanity can escape it's trappings.

Drew,

RE:.... "Computer technology is in our face! I'm not so sure this is good for humanity "


To me, it's been long after due, that we seriously break the bounds of this Earth we all currently live on.

Space beckons.....Just as that land at the edge of the world beckoned to the Europeans back 500+ years ago.


With this lovely blue ball becoming the welcoming vacation spot for returning voyagers

Perhaps, you and I will be the one's to place the lei's on to their necks

Ain't gonna happen until we discover free, unlimited energy and we're nowhere on that. Other planets in the solar system would require a complete "terraforming" exercise in order to avoid freezing, roasting or fatal radiation or corrosive 700 degree atmospheres, so that's purely fictional. Outside the solar system, we get nowhere without breaking the speed of light and we're nowhere on that either. We'll be stuck on this little blue orb for the duration.

On the other hand, I do recollect my first attempt at digital imagery and, unlike leaving the earth, that pursuit definitely HAS progressed in a finite period of time. I recall my first exercise in the miracle of using a computer to make a picture. It was a cartoonish picture of a man, typed out in letter x's on a large sheet of green bar paper, the kind that scrolled out of those outrageously noisy band printers. People in the office ooooo-ed and ahhhhh-ed, but I thought that digital imagery still had a way to go.

Doug.

RE:.. :Ain't gonna happen "

Since our essence, our DNA, has been unlocked and can be transformed into 0's and 1's, Anything can happen


And remember, early explorers were told they would be swallowed up by the demons of the deep or if not, fall off the edge


Edit:

Do you think the Europeans, (especially the Italians) had any idea what a tomato was, before the explorers took sail?

1&0's...... behind all of existence is information. A lot of unified theorist would agree with you Roger! Your spirit is that of a renaissance man for sure!

Drew.

RE:... "Renaissance Man"

Thanks

Back Atcha

Now back downstairs......There's a bunch of mussel shells that need crab claws

Here is a Ted Talk on where we are in the digital age and where we are headed.

Drew,

He certainly believes what he believes.

I think we are still in the 1700s chess board syndrome. Meaning that back somewhere around 1700 an automatic chess board was built. If you moved a piece, the board would counter move. Eventually it was discovered that the levers etc that moved the pieces leading under the cabinet....to a small man hidden in the cabinet playing against you.

I agree with my nephew, who is a recent MIT computer science degree grad, that "sentient" life in a machine is over 100 or even 300 years away. That putting a time line on it at this point is not doable. Just our opinions.

Dave
Bridburg.com

I sure would like to read some of your nephews publications Dave B. I sure if he's a MIT grad., he has 1 or 2! Is he your sister's son?

I doubt he is published. He is going to the commercial side of things. He has a job in San Francisco starting up in August.

The point is he has been in the swirl of academia as of now.

It is only my opinion that sentient life in a machine is a very long way off. He agrees with that. When he began two years ago, declaring his major as computer science, we disagreed. People hype things for money. Who'da thunk it?

addition: Drew you can look up my sister at MIT under our last name. My nephew went to MIT paying only for room, board and books because she works there. If he goes on for a masters later, she and her ex will pay for that because of the free ride he has enjoyed so far. At that time he might publish.

Dave
Bridburg.com

Oh! I see Dave! your nephew is just out of school! No real experience! I would ask him in about 5 years when he gets some real work experience behind him. Right now he is probably ambitious, arrogant, and green as hell! Computer Science and Electrical Engineering with computer structure emphasis are similar but the former emphasizes software, language and compiler design while the engineer works primarily in the binary and hardware architecture. I'm sure your nephew has a bright future ahead once he gets over his MIT education.

Drew,

He is not arrogant at all. You would have nothing to worry about.

He is a nice guy.

You are not dealing with the spectrum of the automated chess board circa 1700 v sentient life form. Where are we as a culture?

Dave

I'm sure from your POV, a proad uncle who see his nephew as fantastic. This doesn't remove the fact he is fresh out of school with a lot to learn. I've supervised and trained dozens with similar credentials.

Sociologically, there are the few who master the machines and the majority who are users. There is no Tomorrow-land anymore! It is here and now.!

Drew,

My dad as a medical doctor left Ireland because he would have to work in Ireland under an older doctor who owned the beds in the hospital. Dad was a much better doctor who decided from day one he was an equal. He came to America for that reason. Often the better doctor is fresh out of med school and starts out as an equal.

It is rubbish to need to be superior to other people. It simply is not true either. Doing the job well is the reward, regardless of one's level of expertise. Kyle is heading off to an engineering department in San Francisco, where he has already proven himself the summer before. That is why he was hired, his fellow interns were not hired back.

You will have to define 'sociologically"? But I guess your second sentences says there are programmers and there are computer users, and that is the run down of who uses computers. Only a minority are programmers.

I was asking your thoughts one when sentient life would be in the machine?

Dave
Bridburg.com

Dave, so often your differ your knowledge base to someone you know and/or your family members. While I'm sure you are proud of them because you do so often refer to them, I am sure you have your own opinions separate and unique from them; besides, they are not here on FAA joining in the discussion!

"Where are we as a culture? " This is what I was referring when I used the term "sociologically." A somewhat synonymous term with more of a group interaction emphasis withing a culture rather than the iconic material association that the term culture can imply.

"I was asking your thoughts one when sentient life would be in the machine?" If I could answer this, I would not be here announcing it to the world!
What I do understand about AI is that it is currently rooted in classical Aristotelian logic, propositional logic, predicate logic, computational structure and discrete mathematics. It is heavily reliant on statistical and probabilistic data collection and decision making. When humans started understanding the importants of Boolean mathimatic, they stubled on the truest funamental logic. An arcana! Maybe, The Arcana!

As I have clarified in my statements sentient life in a machine is possibly centuries away. That was my opinion. Actually my nephew came around to that opinion later. He as I have said is in the thick of it. On the hardware side of it, the computers being built currently have the wrong architecture for sentient life. While multiple core technologies are a step in the right directions, the architecture is still completely wrong. By far too slow.

Frankly most of what has been coded as AI was done wrong. We have been around discussing this before. Most AI so far has been programmed in the wrong languages.

As someone who was trained in structured languages and Java, Boolean logic escapes me. Perhaps it is my personal wiring, but more importantly the object relations necessary for AI needed newly conceived programming languages to set up objects as variables. Coding happening between variables. That is not possible with older programming languages.

Dave

Drew,

My analogy is the 1700s automated chess board.

My nephew's metaphor, all he will be doing is building a better mouse trap.

My nephew a couple of weeks ago was surprised by how apt my analogy is.

Dave
Bridburg.com

"Coding happening between variables. That is not possible with older programming languages." Dave B.
Sorry Dave. By your own admittance, you really don't understand computer language, machine, intermediary, high, and object oriented. kinda strange since you earlier profession of experience in FORTRAN, c c++, so forth and so on; nor are you familiar with the flexibility of various computer architecture. you seem to be locked into inflexibility. Oh well!

Drew,

Kindly stop making things up. It ruins any discussion.

Dave
Bridburg.com

It seems like we are now experiencing the "Shield and Spear" Paradox

Not make it up Dave. this statement tells a lot!"
"As someone who was trained in structured languages and Java, Boolean logic escapes me" Dave B.
prior statement:
"Learned FORTRAN first in Houston. Then some JAVA and C++. C++ is the worst. Learned Dos. Learned some Visual Basic. Learned Lotus 123 and Word Perfect. Learned Access. Then learned COBOL. Finally studied some of the courses for a MSCE which was for LAN Administration."

Boolean Logic is the ABCs of programming! It's like saying I learned to write in the English language but I don't know my ABCs.

Yes Roger,

We have run aground on that sort of dialog.

Hardware wise information is sent chip to chip trying to avoid any conflicts in the electronics. That is slow.

Recent multi core technologies have found adding systems to organize the code through the cores slows down what would have happened logically with no such systems. This insight speeds up muli core CPUs a great deal.

But it has been widely known for some time now, computers need to migrate to a system where the code directs its self chip to chip. Yet humanity does not know where to begin on designing such a system.

Dave
Bridburg.com

"As someone who was trained in structured languages and Java, Boolean logic escapes me" Dave B.

Drew,

if you had taken some time to finish the reading, instead of trying to run me down, you'd see I stated current systems based on boolean logic are problematic specifically for AI.

The problem with boolean logic as practiced is the formations of general to specific and specific to general. They do not work correctly in older computer languages. The coding falls flat on its self in AI.

Dave
Bridburg.com

The only Shield and Spear Roger is what is intelligence and does intelligence equate to life?

"if you had taken some time to finish the reading, instead of trying to run me down" Dave B.
If you can't handle the scrutiny get out of the line of fire. I'm not attacking you Dave! I'm exploring your ethos appeal! My never ending researcher's nature! Your claims have to be self supporting. If they are not, they will collapse under their own weight. And I'm being very nice and generous with that last statement.

The reason boolean logic cognitively escapes me, I was not specifically trained in boolean logic.

I was trained in those languages, which despite claims that they involved boolean logic......it is like claiming someone with one arm has two arms. The second arm simply does not exist in those languages. So when I was finally introduced to boolean logic later on, it was a surprise to find a two armed logic system.

You can study Shakespeare all you want, then say you put a few quotes into your code, but your code will not read like a sonnet. It is not based on Shakespeare.

New languages are being developed that do work on boolean logic for the purposes of programming specifically AI.

Dave
Bridburg.com

line of fire.

That is empty knock it off.

Dave
Bridburg.com

If you don't understand propositional logic you don't understand computer language for computer language is propositional logic. instead of 1s & 0s you have True or False! Boolean logic is propositional logic! Not only is the statement I just made relevant, it is a hypothetical syllogism that can be both expressed in Ps&Qs resulting in 1s & 0s or Ts & Fs. "line of fire" incoming! Put on rubber bootz!


Shield and Spear : I don't know if these quality Roger but somehow they seem to fit.....LOL!
There were 3 little pigs who built houses, 1 made of straw, 1 made of sticks, and 1 made of bricks..................then there was a little boy who cried wolf.............what big lies you have said little red riding hood..........and the tower of babel came crashing down said the AI robot to agent smith.....

Drew,

Are you programming in assembly language? If not what you are stating does not apply.

Structured programming languages are not good enough for AI. Another way of saying that more appropriately object languages are outdated when it comes to AI.

Good luck with it,

Dave
Bridburg.com

Dave, all a compiler does is reduces high level language down to assembly. assembly language is nothing more than a set of hexadecimal numbers that represent a binary equivalent. These said binary numbers are logical gate triggers within a microprocessor. The most well known are the push push pop pop commands that pushes data into a designated register and pops the data from a register.
a compiler designer works backwards from assembly to create higher level languages.

there are many microprocessors out there and there are manufacturers who can customize a design. When it comes right down to it, computer architecture is NOT fix in stone as you imply BUT flexible and customizable.
I wrote two essays on the predominant architecture in the late eighties which certainly is now obsolete but the fundamentals still apply. They are called Cisk and Risk.

Drew,

Yes the fundamentals of your papers still apply. I never implied that the architectures were rigid. What I am saying is we need the code to route its self, but the engineers worry about how to avoid the conflicts. Such designs do not exist yet.

Are you programming in assembly language?

The object languages of old do not work properly with objects for AI. The main reasons are the interplay between top down creating of objects and their attributes.

Dave
Bridburg.com

My first computer was a Timex - y'know the ol' watch company - "Keeps a licking and keeps on ticking."
It was a $100 home computer, early 1980's. It was built in conjunction with Sinclair Research, a company in the UK.

Introducing the Timex Sinclair 1000.



Thus began a whole chain of events. Commodore VIC 20, Commodore 64, Laser 128 (Apple II clone), and on and on and on and on and on.

Computers are like guitars in that the proper number to own - is "just one more."


---------------
~ Bill
BillSwartwout.com

high level languages are designed and redesign! there are many that are task specific or simply customized to fit a need. the only limitation is that of the microprocessor and its highest addressing ability and its bit per register limit.

if you want to find out the limit of a microprocessor, use the factorial "n!" function. it will fill the registers to the capacity faster than any other single math functions.
See Discrete Math BIG O.
BTW, one form of AI I've directly worked with is called genetic algorithm. It is used in computer simulation such as electric power and potable water distribution. It is rooted in Darwinian theory.

Bill, I remember the Timex! never used one though!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm

Drew,

That is new to me. It is interesting. I can clearly see the implications across the engineering world. I have worked many engineering problems to get my ASME. I can see the structure of how this works really being a great tool for optimizing outcomes.

But only in some ways across the business and financial worlds. For instance figuring out where to place bank ATMs or branches. The reason being if a bank is covering an entire state, and other data is known about the population, enough is known to make some sort of marketing plan. But it can still fail. This system could over estimate and flop. Either not putting enough ATMs or bank branches in place, so other banks eat your lunch. Then the human complexity of touch is worth more.

Business decisions for inventory would be a mess with this sort of thing. Yet business people apply Darwinian nonsense about business controls all the time when seeking investors. KO never did knock out Pepsico, regardless of the survival of the fittest. We have a hard time understanding how many sales we will get from a population in a given city. If man can not do it well in the first place, this system wont do it any better. JMO

Now on engineering problems, this system is crunching what you, Drew, can do, but as a tool is probably excellent, fast and reliant.

Yet can you, Drew, use this AI to get sales of your art? Wall Street sells this sort of thing as something that can be done for Walmart. The dangerous reality or non reality of AI. Things really get crazy for the Walmarts of the world, when they try to set up such tools and then lift the hood and see what the code has been doing. Ouch!! You can try Google about the horror stories. You will find scant little, it would cost the Walmarts of the world to report the flops.

Dave
Bridburg.com