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Ronald Walker

5 Years Ago

Anti Intellectualism

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."---Isaac Asimov. Wondering what you think of this quote and whether it has anything to do with the visual arts, in your opinion.

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David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Ronald,

My literary sister just got back from a weekend in VT, a sort of convention to encourage people who are not white upper middle class to go into museums to critique artwork and the experience of going for the first time.I believe the group may even offset the costs involved, but do not quote me.

This was also being done elsewhere closer to NYC a couple of months ago. Art Net News was reporting on it. Actually in that instance, it might have been done in Baltimore, my memory is vague now.

I think people want to skip going to school and say they are all set. While everyone is completely equal, outcomes are not. I am talking legal and economic now.

The arts are a way for children in more impoverished areas to see what could be. This matters greatly. Our prisons are over crowded, we all need something better.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

David King

5 Years Ago

I think the bigger problem comes when people assume their knowledge is better than someone else's knowledge.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/baltimore-deaccessioning-proceeds-1309481

Ronald,

What the Baltimore Museum did actually goes much further. This is by far the furthest any museum has gone to create true diversity.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

DK,

What specifically do you mean?

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

David King

5 Years Ago

No need for specifics DB, that statement stands fine all on it's own.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Is it referring to anything?

Or does it mean education is not necessary?

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

David King

5 Years Ago

Just a general statement DB, applies to anything, and it has nothing to do with education. The reality is facts are scarce, opinions abound.

 

Ronald Walker

5 Years Ago

I am guessing that David K. means that you can't know everything and to decide that a bit of knowledge that you have is better than the bit of knowledge the next person has is snobbery. For example artist A has a great deal of technical knowledge, artist B has a great knowledge of art history and artist C. has lots of theoretical knowledge, which is better?

 

Jack Torcello

5 Years Ago

Wordsworth the poet took pains when he recognized that having a special gift in language (such as a poet does)
could often mean that he excluded his audience - that his reach, his horizons as a poet - were shrunken by the
sophistication and depth of his language.

Wordsworth developed his language - as he phrased it - the language "of a man, talking to men!"

He took great pains to reach with his poetic expression as far as he could, to include the simplest man or woman
- right up to the great sage and thinker. All were included, and all got a great deal from his poetry.

I think anti-intellectualism can arise because the language spoken is abstruse, is specialist, and is elite, because it
is meant for a clearly defined - and small - group. Anti-intellectualism arises because those of a lesser intellect find
the subject (art, philosophy, politics, religion, history etc etc) posed in such impenetrable language as to invite a
backlash - and probably deserved!

There is no intellectual idea which can not be couched in universally acceptable language.

But the art market thrives on a sense of exclusivity. Many buy and sell art by buying into a sense of exclusivity:
art-speak - the blurb which goes along with the art in art catalogs at art galleries - is necessarily impenetrable
because most appreciate that good art "is not easily gotten!" If you 'understand' a piece too quickly, then it is
probably not the kind of art anyone would want to pay good money for.

I can understand the anti-intellectualism this may cause; yet art-sales seem to thrive on it, odd to say!

Many, many people deal with sophistication and complexity by acts of utter contempt - they raze it to the ground!
Now it does not impede their progress, bar their way, nor cloud their outlook -and they are free to go about
their business unencumbered by it! The winner (in an artistic sense as in any) is the one who can make the most
abstruse idea or art available to all.

 

Kathy Anselmo

5 Years Ago

I use the phrase "Anti-intellectualism" a lot, it describes most everyone I know with their non-conciliatory attitudes... or the other phrase is "Proletariat Zombies". People just seem to give-up on learning and reading around the age of 32. It definitely affects visual arts in that anti-intellectualism produces mostly derivative art or plain old fashioned propaganda posters... my other saying: the USA is an "anti-cultural wasteland". I think people should make a habit of reading everyday for an hour... and read something that is useful and beneficial to them.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Just a general statement DB, applies to anything, and it has nothing to do with education. The reality is facts are scarce, opinions abound.

DK and Ronald,

Setting aside the discussion of how it could apply to artists, I agree with most of this. Particularly the last part. Goes to common sense.

But it does have a lot to do with education. JMO

You would not trust a guy claiming to be heart surgeon never having gone to medical school, but having slept in a Holiday Inn.

We depend on educated points of view. Those points of view fail us constantly. But we still depend on someone taking the time to truly study things.

Dave
Post Modern Artist


 

Roger Swezey

5 Years Ago

Ronald,

RE:... ".....my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

One just has to go back in history, from Ptolemy on, to statements everyone was taught to be "true"

Sometimes, it takes someone with an unfettered mind to question that "truth".

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

Isaac Asimov, one of my favorite writers of all time! Anti-intellectualism relating to science and the scientific community is quite apparent these days. Dismissive Global Warming apologist are reminiscent of the Deutsche Physik advocates that refused to openly acknowledge Einstein's theories in relativity.
Today, western art academia philosophers, so engrossed in their modernity philosophy based on a 150 year old +/- rebellion against Art Academicism, dissmiss ideas forged by 400 years of arts established within a golden era of art and science advancements. The predominant modernity philosophy NOW can be compared to that coming out of Académie des Beaux-Arts and the Salon (+/-150 years ago) rebelled against by the great impressionists Claude Monet, Edgar Degas, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Camille Pissarro and Berthe Morisot! To keep it simple, the ideas leading up to the great impressionist rebellion now are the catalyst used to dismiss those who incorporate pre-modern ideas of art in their artistic endeavors. Modern Art Philosophers are the establishment! They are the perpetrators of "Anti-intellectualism" within the art community.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

To keep it simple, the ideas leading up to the great impressionist rebellion now are the catalyst used to dismiss those who incorporate pre-modern ideas of art in their artistic endeavors.

Drew,

LOL, I could not agree more.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Ronald Walker

5 Years Ago

Drew, very true to a point. The only problem is the term "Modern Art" is a giant umbrella that encompasses virtually everything. It has been used so much and so often that it is now a fairly meaningless term.

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

"The only problem is the term "Modern Art" is a giant umbrella that encompasses virtually everything." Ron

Actually it is not Ron. Art history has become Art philosophy and not the history of art. The Great Western Artistic Schism has definable causes that can be reduced to a handful of historical events. Some technological and some social. The divergence of art and science started splintering around 1840. Historically, this is the approximate time when Academicism relating to arts and science began going in different directions. Therefore art modernity and Modern Art are synonymous in this context.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Drew,

The problem is in each age the human eye of the audience is trained by the artists. One generation of artists building on the next.

From there it is what it is. Artists and viewers alike see things from a certain perspective in any given time period. The past is put into that box. Or those boxes. The present is claimed and validated or not by many different parties interacting in different ways.

That was just as true for Rubens as it is for Koons today.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

Dave, I do not see this as a problem. It is an understanding. A perspective to be explored.

 

Ana Dragan

5 Years Ago

It has to do with everything! Arts always walked hand in hand with the other branches of culture (literature, music etc), and if we're excluding them, then what kind of art will we have? How many youngsters read? how many go to a concert? how many just admire nature for its beauty, contemplating, instead of taking selfies? I think there's a grave threaten to intellectualism....and maybe we're getting closer and closer to "Idiocracy"

@ Jack Torcello: "exclusivity" might be a problem, but "laziness" is also something to consider. It's hard to put your brain to work, it's hard to develop a taste for literature or intellectual stuff. On the other hand, it's very easy to take it for grant, to watch TV or listen to some shitty music or never ever read a book. There are great thinkers, like Wordsworth, who addressed to everyone, so there's no excuse for the people who say "intellectualism is incomprehensible. There's always a point to start from, if you really want to.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Drew,

In the arts "problem" can mean something different from 'trouble'. I am suggest it as a problem as your next two sentences are saying.

People are free to explore what they want online. Anything can be pursued and can sell. Every voice very democratically can be at the table. Besides I steal from people who made pre modern art. Just like them to be dead over 70 years.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Ronald Walker

5 Years Ago

I stand by what I said about Modern Art being an umbrella term. Takes on Photorealism, non objective abstraction and so on even if you try to revive days of yore you are a modernist. No real choice due to the fact your mindset is that of someone from our era, not theirs. Given I am using modern and contemporary in a interchangeable way.

 

Ronald Walker

5 Years Ago

By the way Kathy, I love the term" proletariat Zombies"!

 

David King

5 Years Ago

Here we have two educated people who cannot agree on the term "modern art". Here's a possible specific example for you DB, but really, it could be anything. In this case Drew and Ron are being respectful of each other so there's no problem, they just disagree. However it seems over the last 20 years this kind of dialog has become the exception, more so every year. Most of the time anymore when two people disagree each calls the other ignorant or some form of that word or some other derogatory or dismissive name. Maybe that's always been the case and I'm only becoming more and more aware of it...either way I blame the internet.

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

I stand by what I said about Modern Art "being an umbrella term." Ron
I have no problem with your perception of the term Ron! Your schooling is that of Art Modernity philosophers. I can empathise with this POV.
Anti-intellectualism, the squelching of ideas that do not conform to the existing ideas held by the established institutions happens! It can be subtle such as being shunned for not conforming to a fashion to abrupt as not conforming to a dictator's ideology and being labeled as a troublemaker, dissident, or enemy of the state.

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Roy Erickson

5 Years Ago

"I think anti-intellectualism can arise because the language spoken is abstruse, is specialist, and is elite, because it
is meant for a clearly defined - and small - group. Anti-intellectualism arises because those of a lesser intellect find
the subject (art, philosophy, politics, religion, history etc etc) posed in such impenetrable language as to invite a
backlash - and probably deserved! "

It's called "art speak". Making something out of nothing just to say a lot of words. I don't know that it is people of "lesser intellect" but more a matter intellectualism in the subject. It would be like taking that group (art, philosophy, politics, religion, history etc etc) out to a tractor pull for farmers, or a cattle ranch where they still use horses and have them understand the fine points of the engine or the trappings on the horse.

The other day there was that "museum/gallery" that had a pile of tumbleweeds stacked up and on the floor - and it's called art. And you wonder why the general populace buys their art at Walmart or the furniture or retail store (Like JCP). Artists are caught up in the snobbish 'elite' of art that most folks wouldn't hang anywhere.

Who needs to read when you don't even teach people how to write a letter. As for real theater and going to a concert - oh I do have to laugh.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Joe,

I can not hear the video now, because I am in SB and the audio wont be loud enough for me to listen carefully.

I can see though that many very smart people were not on that panel.....ie zero women. Obviously the women who belong there knew better than to show up with those guys.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

"you're calling the kettle black".......LMAO!

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Drew,

Care to explain that? This I want to hear.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

CHERYL EMERSON ADAMS

5 Years Ago

Hi Joe:

I appreciated your TED talk post, and got something out of it.

Res ipsa loquitur.





 

Joe Burgess

5 Years Ago

Hi Cheryl

Thanks for being my forum friend. :)

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Joe,

I had to look up the Latin.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Joe,

Bit after midnight, listening to your panel. These guys do not get it. They are creating tools not human level intelligence.

Tools have us as complete masters.

Currently 80% of internet traffic is bots. But there are a few people behind that, not machines as the decision makers.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Walter Paul Bebirian

5 Years Ago

the reality created by us -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVC0FcSRxL8

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

I would have to agree with the narrator of the video in respect to "reason over emotion ."
Pathos is what is being used to manipulate and control others on a massive scale.

 

Yuri Tomashevi

5 Years Ago

The interesting question about anti-intellectualism thread is this - will it diminish, be steady or will it grow going forward ...

I think it will grow and it will grow significantly. The reason is a fast rise of an artificial intelligence (AI) and related jobs replacement by AI in-mass. A massive anger will go against AI ... and against those people who helped to create and enhance an AI. And those people are an intelligent people.

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

Yuri, I think you have good insite! Moore's law is not linear! It is geometric!

 

CHERYL EMERSON ADAMS

5 Years Ago

So if it's geometric, and it's not linear, then all we know is it is not two dimensional.

That means it's either a point (is there a point to this?) or multidimensional. How many dimensions, and what does it look like if we create a model?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Of course, my crystal ball broke (again... that thing almost never works) and I let the wrong person borrow my time machine, so I'm going to have a tough time collecting the data for the future. Guess I'll find out when I get there LOL.

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

When I stated it is not linear, it is geometric; this means in regards to Moore's Law that the capacity of transistor density doubles every 18 months +/-. This is a count of transistors, a discrete number. The term linear, in this case means, being ploted on a 2 dimensional graph such that a strait line is formed. Geometric can also be ploted on a 2 dimensional graph but the increase in the number of transistors grow at such a rate that an upward parabolic curve is generated. The dimensional comparison remains the same. The dimensions being number of transistors and time.
An example of linear growth would be a person at the age of 20 is 100 lbs. Every year they gain 1 lb. At the age of 70 they would be 150 lbs. The dimensions are weight and time. A strait line can be drawn from 20 to 70 and the slope of the line is 1lb/1year.( a constant slope)
Geometric growth means that the slope becomes VERY large VERY fast! It is constantly increasing, approaching such a large number for all practical purpose it might as well be infinity.

 

Yuri Tomashevi

5 Years Ago

I think that Drew brought up Moore's law to emphasis that AI will grow similar to capacity of transistor density - with much-much faster than linear growth. So far that was true for any trends related to information technology ... Back to anti-intellectualism thread trend in a future - I think that anti-intellectualism will grow as fast as AI but probably faster than linear after some point.

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

Yuri, anti intellectual rhetoric has always existed. Historically, when it increases it is an indicator of social unrest. A power struggle! It should be called anti theology or anti-establishment rhetoric.

Deutsche Physiks was a movement in the german science community that dismissed Jewish scientific accomplishments. This is why Einstein did not receive a Nobel peace prize for his theory in general and specific relativity.
This is a case where brilliant thinkers wanted to distroy brilliant thinkers and their ideas.

 

CHERYL EMERSON ADAMS

5 Years Ago

Drew... I was kidding! LOL

 

Joe Burgess

5 Years Ago

"...anti intellectual rhetoric has always existed. Historically, when it increases it is an indicator of social unrest. A power struggle!"

It's a not so gentle reminder that no matter how far we think we've removed ourselves from the natural order, I can always kick you in the nuts and take your shit.
Winner!

 

Lisa Kaiser

5 Years Ago

Okay, this conversation just got going, thank you for that, Joe.

 

Abbie Shores

5 Years Ago

Ha! Joe! Perfect

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Drew,

Moore's 18 month doubling time has been slowing and slowing for ten years now. "Brian Krzanich, the former CEO of Intel, announced, "Our cadence today is closer to two and a half years than two." Intel is expected to reach the 10 nm node in 2018, a three-year cadence.[21][22" Wikipedia]

Joe,

They are all nuts.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

NOT if I kick you first Joe! LOL!
Cheryl, you of course were kidding but understanding dimensions can be daunting for many. The unfamiliar often attach mystical means linked to the popular science fiction genre. Confusing squaring, cubing and so forth to increasing dimensions is a common misnomer. A single physical dimensions is a single variable such as the position of an apple relative to the ground. If the apple falls, then hits Newton on the knoggin, this all the can be mathematically modeled by considering the dimension of time.

Dave B, you are repeating yourself. I am not waisting my time rehashing the same old things you are stuck on!

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Drew,

You keep bring up outdated concepts and elaborating. Please.....it is on you.

I am trying to get you into today's scientific world. I am ambitious. :)

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

"It's a not so gentle reminder that no matter how far we think we've removed ourselves from the natural order, I can always kick you in the nuts and take your shit.
Winner!" Joe
Before, there were few media outlets.
A monarch would make a public decree.
Guttenberg printed info for distribution.
The radio stations broadcast info.
Film and television distribution of info dominates for decades.
Internet creates interactive information distribution.
The latter seems to be more of an equalizing means of distribution of info.

Will the latter help maintain a certain polarized equalization or will something give and destroy said polarized information distribution?

 

Abbie Shores

5 Years Ago

It wouldn't surprise me, Drew

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

Drew,

There are economic decisions, not just of the broadcasters, but the recipients that will determine what happens on each side of polarization.

Basically where the tire meets the road will win out. Of course we have seen some backfiring on our early crude jalopy.

To explain my thoughts further ventures into forbidden politics. Beyond economics into the decision making.

Dave
Post Modern Artist

 

Drew

5 Years Ago

Abbie, F. Scott Fitzgerald stated" The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function." This idea is a variation on Aristotle's.
The key elements of the idea are education, empathy and tolerance of others' POV. Tearing down these concepts ultimately creates a large group subject to emotionally charged and un informed decision making: a group easily manipulated; the base of a dictator.

 

David Bridburg

5 Years Ago

ditto

 

This discussion is closed.