Of Mentors And Well-intentioned Friends

Doesn't sound like it's still a mentorship to me. A mentor gives specific direction, not vague critiques. I've never really had a mentor, but I have quit taking classes when I started getting the sense that the teacher really had nothing more to offer me.

Artists can have fragile egos and be subject to unintentional hurt.

I was asked awhile back for my thoughts on a particular image by an artist I highly admire.

Somehow my response and comments,...I'm afraid were not well received, I was not harsh or even critical,..(I thought?)

The closeness that I felt once existed,...had changed with that artist.

As a result I will now avoid critiquing another's work even when asked.

There can be a mistaken judgmental perception implied when doing so and the resulting hurt is not worth it.

The hurt was deeply felt by me as well,...there's no where to go with it because I feel I caused it.

As an aside,..

I also over time,..on occasion am aware of particular viewers in the public workplace who have assumptions of who I am and what I'm about without even knowing me.

Just my thoughts on the fine line we sometimes walk as an artist.

Hope I'm not off subject with these thoughts

oops

My mentor was only on the technical side early on. He is a retired engineer. He was a great friend to help me. He never tried to critique my work, just point out a few technical matters.

He has said I out grew him. That was over a year ago.

Dave

If you enjoy it... keep doing it! Do not let one individual take you down. It is just "one person's perspective" in an entire sea of artists. You have some nice images here. Why would you want to quit? Keep at it. Keep doing it because you love it! There will always be someone who loves what you do and other's who don't so much. Never mind that. Compete with only yourself. Try to make yourself as best as you can be. Satisfaction to me comes from "self improvement that I see in my OWN work" and not someone's else's view of it.

Wow! Don't give up on photography. Your images look great to me and I can see them selling.

I wonder if this "friend" thinks you are getting so good you will soon be better than him!

I would just go off on your own or with another photographer for a while. I agree with David, he is not acting as a proper mentor if he is giving you no specific direction.

Edit. I started listening to people's advice when I first opened the account here but I soon realised I need to go my own way.

All you need to do is come up with other topics to discuss.
You clearly understand the value of having such a friend in your opening line....
You may be very surprised to discover that your friend doesn't care to only be talking photography either.

My mentors are probably all famous and dead, so I can say I don't have this problem. Seek out mentors from books that wont 't make you feel bad about your work.

A mentor, if not feeling the person they are mentoring is going the right way, gently steers them back on path

This is not a mentor going from your top post but a photographer friend.

Stop worrying about what they think. Go in your own direction and find another 'mentor' IF you actually need one, then enjoy your friendship instead

I have my own insecurities about my work and that does not help in the matter, but thinking again the question I should ask myself is why do I care about this person's opinion to the point that I let it bring me down. Its never really technical problems, more like "read more", "write a poem" or "get a pinhole for a genuine look" "keep a journal" and stuff I don't really know how to interpret.

Anyway, your opinions, much appreciated. Thanks for taking the time of the day to respond.

Perhaps you should just start enjoying this person as a fellow companion while Photographing.

It might be just too much on them to feel like they have to come up with something to continue to encourage you along - because those answers are vague , and may just be what they did to complete their journey.

You may no longer need mentoring from this person.
Continue it as a friendship - & if that doesn't work , you now have your answer.

If they are clearly just obnoxious and want to keep you in the submissive position - you will find that out quickly too.

Depending where you are shooting - there is safety in numbers.

I've had a couple of mentors who pushed me hard to be better. They didn't tell me to read poetry or go to a museum either. What they did was tell me that what I had created was just typical, and that I needed to push it and make it better than typical. If I wanted to get work, I had to get noticed.

If you want to get noticed, you have to be better or different than everyone else.

The only way to get better, is to do more work. Only, it has to be deep work, not just shallow work.

All the external stuff like journals, reading writing and pinholes cameras, that's fine if it makes you feel better, but really, doing the work is all that matters. Shoot more, create more.

Think about anything in life that you can imagine where you noticed the work, the results, the end product. No matter what it was, you noticed it because it stood out from all the rest.

You need Purple Cows. (Seth Godin ref.)

-YoPedro
Twitter@YoPedro

Yo, now that's something put in a manner I can understand.

depends why you hang out with that person. if they are a mentor, and they know this, then they are the teacher and your the student, so its natural for the teacher to be better. you have to give more i guess. on the other hand, if that person is just a friend and your both doing photo stuff, then it doesn't matter who is better.

i don't have any mentors, i don't hang out with anyone, i just have to be better than myself.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Alessandra,

The first question is why do YOU think you need a mentor? What is lacking in your photography that a mentor can help with? Not everyone can produce images of everything, equally well. I can't and everyone I know can't, they all gradually fall into a certain category and enjoy shooting that stuff.

I would suggest that you take a break from the mentor relationship and "self-mentor". Find what you most enjoy photographing and work to improve that. Not everyone is a good teacher, even if the appear to know what they are doing or what they produce, might impress you, they might not be able to share that ability,

Rich

Wow, I think you work is stunning! As somebody above said, maybe this (non) mentor is worried you are getting TOO good! Keep up the amazing work!

What David King said - saves me from typing it all out.

Break away, set yourself free.

Sounds like your friend took a Jay Maisel workshop - "If you want to make more interesting pictures, become a more interesting person.” – Jay Maisel

Which is all and good but its hard to do when you are hanging around each other. You are only interesting to the other person if you go off on your own and bring back some new discoveries.

Maybe instead of photographing together, go to art shows or museums and compare thoughts on what you see.

Personally I can't imagine joining a camera group where everyone hangs out at a garden or some place and photographs. I can just imagine all of the irritating gear talk about who has the newest or biggest lens or a new camera.

You all make sense, thanks.

Yes in photo clubs there is a lot of talk about gear!

Edward

Jay's like that outside of his workshops too.

A true mentor will always push you to improve.

Well-intentioned friends will usually tell you that you're stuff is great no matter what.

You do NOT need a mentor.. be your own mentor.. don't allow someone else to gauge your advancements.. YOU are the only one who can do that for yourself.

A well-intentioned but ignorant family member tried to "help" me at one time, and the result was pretty much sabotage. I was on the verge of some pretty great things too - opportunities I'd earned on my own. Those were tough things to lose. All of that caused illness. I have never completely forgiven that person.

The lesson is, NEVER let anyone get in the way of your dreams, no matter who they are. Cut them out of your life entirely if you must. I wish I had.

I definitely had a mentor....Mrs McCabe, my 8th grade elementary school teacher, who saw artistic potential in me, insisted that I apply to go to the High School of Music & Art.

My parents could care less, "Whatever he wants it's OK with us"

So I applied and got in

And That Made ALL the Difference in My Life.


I often wonder had it not been for Mrs. McCabe where would I be. now ,
.
I would have gone to the local high school,(Jamaica High)...had a "normal" social life....probably gone to Queens College, majoring in Who Knows What.....Gotten married young...Had a family...probably got a divorce....had a steady unfulfilling job....retired bitter....wondering, now, why the kids didn't call for Fathers Day


I'm happy I was knocked off my track.. I believe I've had a hell of a more interesting life ,not despite , but because of it

Roger this is a great story.

Alessandra,

People need to be in your life, not cut out.

You need to see the value of your art and dismiss everyone else's point of view. Anyone can be a Monday morning quarterback. It is rubbish.

My dad, mom, sisters and mentor will say they do not like an image from time to time. I remind them that they are not the buying public and there are images for them to like so that is the way it is. That for every 1000 people who come and go online, I am only looking for one who likes an image for some offbeat reason. They do not count. I then kind of let them know they are not talking about art criticism, but their singular likes and dislikes.

At this point they have half given up which is exactly the position they belong in because their sway should be highly respectful that they are not doing anything at all.

One of my sisters and my mother feel very free to occasionally tell me when things could be improved. I add plenty of salt to their point of view. They have not lived for three years thinking over art and the marketing of art. Neither have any background in the arts either. I nudge them over. It does not hurt them at all, but they stand aside.

I love having these people in my life. But take over at the steering wheel? HA!!

Just one small point.....likes and dislikes do not count to an artist. The public can go around saying I like this or I do not like that, but that is a very hollow way of thinking about art.

Also I never got pushed to do better by my mentor. I asked him questions on the technical side as they arose. If he pushed me it would not have mattered either way, I am in charge of my art.

I must say eight months ago he volunteered his large screen TV for me to review a certain type of work. He picked up on some flaws and let me know. He is a 76 year old retired engineer with one step son who needs a lot more than pushing, but I do not fall into that category. He got irate at one point that I was dismissing all he was saying. "Why ask me?" I rolled over him and said I make the decisions with this work. We are still great friends. Between the guys, the lack of respect and friendship would have been if I did not roll over him.

That was the only occasion he tried that.

Dave

I think we always have to examine someone's advice and see if they have a point. Put aside any sensitivities and see of they're correct.
But I also believe that when someone is making a valid point we need to hear to learn from, if it a TRUTH, it does not leave us feeling bad. It may not feel good to hear it at first but, at least for me, the truth never hurts for long and always helps.

There are people who can be passive aggressive and are able to smile, compliment and chat with you and then when they walk away you feel lousy.
Those are people with their own stuff to deal with and are better off not being around.
The transfer of negative energy can't be seen but most definitely can be felt.
And as I said, many times it comes in pretty wrapping that attracts us until we see what's inside.

In the end, you likely got whatever it was you were meant to learn from this person and it's time to move on.
People that are good for us to be around don't make us feel bad, at least not over the long term.
Period.

"I've learned people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel" -Maya Angelou-

Two different roles:

(a) mentor
(b) friend

and a third role:

(c) person who isn't really a friend or mentor, who does stuff with you anyway, and maybe isn't all that interested in fostering your growth as a person or as an artist.

There can be overlap, of course.

A real friend, or a mentor who is actively engaged in evaluating your work -- either one has to be able to deliver constructive criticism, and you have to be able to listen, weigh the criticism, and obtain value from it if there is value to be had, without you letting it shred your ego into small quivering bits.

That's different from a person whose comments mostly consist of constant picking at you / finding fault with your work. Constant picking / finding fault is not constructive, it is not friendship, and it is not mentoring.

It is up to you to listen, and understand who this person is to you: a person who is a friend and/or mentor delivering constructive criticism, or a person who is constantly picking / finding fault.

That said, even the best of friends / mentors have bad days, and get crabby, and take it out on the people around them. It can be important to be able to tell the difference between something that's said because they're in a bad mood, or in response to you doing something annoying, vs. legitimate constructive criticism.

If you think this "mentor" is someone that can be turned into a supportive friend you should try to figure out how to do that. At least in my experience real friends are awful hard to come by, that friendship might be worth fighting for, though you're the only one that can make that determination.

Sometimes mentors do turn into friends. In choosing a mentor...yes, a mentor should be carefully chosen in life...they should be someone you look up to (and don't forget, you need to ask someone to be your mentor, not just CALL a person your mentor after a time). They should be someone whose life experiences are admirable, and something you aspire to and/or someone who has a fount of knowledge in your chosen field. There's a big difference between a mentor and a critic. If their mentoring turns into a friendship, all the better. But don't call a friend or acquaintance a mentor because they've offered you a few tips or suggestions that have worked out.They have to agree to the mentor-mentee relationship.

My mentor was picked by me because of his body of work. I didn't even know his name, but saw his work and said "I wanna be as good as he is. So I stopped by his studio over 40 years ago and asked if he would teach me. He said yes, I worked for free and we are very good friends still today.

All people annoy me at some point but sooner rather than later I start crying to any mentor to get out and to others about how no good deed goes unpunished.


In other words, I always surpass my mentors.

So many insights, I cannot comment on each and every one. But many things to consider here, not only by me, but by many of us (except by Mike I gather a lone wolf). David King, yes a good friend is hard to come by. Hell, just finding someone to go out with you photographing, very difficult. And when you go out to isolated places or places in the city or inner city that are not so safe alone, it is riskier than if you go with a companion. Anyway, I am closing this discussion since I gather, all has been said. Thanks again!