Elephant In The Room - Maybe Your Art Just Isnt That Good...

I think you are on to something here. My own work used to be much better when I was comparing it to fb posts. I had about 500 images up within a month of joining, I add new stuff frequently and now after almost a year I am down to just over 200. Self critique is hard on the ego put good for your portfolio.

You are right Bob. My portfolio needs a serious cull too. The thing is though that I have been surprised on numerous occasions by work selling that I considered 'meh' and was thinking of deleting. Maybe I will do a big clean-up when I have 100 grade-A works.

Every day I strive to do better. I don't worry so much about sales, instead I try to make photos better than my previous photos. I'm probably due to purge some stuff. I look at shots I made three or four years ago and think to myself--really? You call that good?

Thank God for the Dean's out there. Shake it up. Don't follow. Take your time be an artist. Don't be a sheep. But you have to be good. Color is great. Patience is the best.

Loree, I think the saying 'my best photograph is the one I will take today' is very useful and valid. I don't particularly worry about sales anymore but do like them though. Going out there shooting and improving could prove more worthwhile in the long term than sitting behind a computer trying to sell some generic fluff.

It's a good thing to look back on your older work and shake your head in disbelief - I do. Along with that also comes that feeling of 'if only I had'. But hey, that means growth :)

I like sales too. They're nice. :)

And I hope I look back three or fours years from now and shake my head in disbelief, too. I want to continue to learn and grow as long as I'm alive.

Personally, I take some time once a year (for me after the autumn leaves are gone) and try and compare my images for the year to the images from the previous year. I think it's important to do a personal assessment of where one is on a regular basis. Evaluate how compositions have changed (improved?), processing, subject matter addressed, etc.

Good post Dean.

Good post Dean!

It does have to be seen, though. There are a lot of outstanding artists here that are never seen.
....
As far as quality, it helps to have an outside, impartial "gatekeeper". Someone who evaluates your work from time to time. This site is basically a vanity gallery in which the artist has total control over what is presented unlike other markets I deal with where there are people who evaluate the work for quality and sales potential.

when i make art i try to be better than the last thing i made, or at least as good. always improving is important. however you have to be able to recognize when you got better, and thats not so easy to do. you have to be able to self critique and be honest with yourself. the honesty part is the hardest because people are so used to lying to everyone, it becomes hard to say something truthful even if its your own work.

nice clothes, cute baby, have a nice day, and all that other stuff, people are overly used to complimenting each other, so much so, that they will look at things in a clouded way. and that includes their own work. i used to watch america's got talent and shows like that. and you hear the rejects all the time. they sing, dogs howl for miles. in their heads, they hear the song. out of their mouths, they don't listen to at all. and they are stunned to find out that nails across a chalk board sound better in comparison. they think they are just mean in thinking that, even though they are totally right. and if they have an introspection, it would explain why everyone leaves the room when they belt out a tune.

and its the same for art, so many post up things that i couldn't even classify as a snap shot. art they would never hang in their own house, they post here. i often have to scratch my head when i see some of it. why did they make it? who do they think will buy it? what the heck is it?

i try to offer critiques to improve the quality of art here so buyers won't think its a bad place. many ask for critiques but few give it. others simply praise the person, without even looking at the work, as to why they aren't selling. pouring on more false confidence won't help you to sell better. and if your the type to praise only, then tell people why you like something rather than - cheer up, maybe you'll get a sale tomorrow.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I sometimes have the opposite experience to what you describe, Dean. Sometimes someone will ask why they are not selling and I look at their work and it's outstanding. However, they usually only have maybe the free account amount of work, like 25 pieces, or just slightly more than that if it's a paid account.

I attribute my few sales here in 4 years to the fact that I have a lot of stuff posted and people stumble over me occasionally. That said, however, I have deleted well over 400 images since I started that I would be embarrassed now to post here because I know they are crap. I think I've gotten to the point where I know what's at least good and what's simply not good. I have often uploaded a series of photos, then cringed when I tried a couple of them with a frame around them on the purchase screen, and just simply deleted them on the spot. Although I try to cull out the dogs before I upload.

I also know what you mean about searching and seeing what's sold that may be similar to what you have posted. Happens to me all the time. Mine is good, but theirs is often WAY better.

Just keep trying to improve......

I just culled about 40 images from my account that I thought were sub-par. I think most of my pastel work is pretty good, although i can see that my work has improved over the past couple of years. I didn't do any art at all for many years between the early stuff and a few years ago. My photography has definitely improved lately. I think my problem is not knowing how or who to market my work to effectively. Oh well, maybe I'm fooling myself and all of my work really is crap. I'm planning to scale back on marketing this site and look for other income streams anyway.

Great topic and yes, of course there is an elephant in the room...the room is filled with all levels of artists from wanna bes to hobbyists to professionals. each has his own standards.....some high, some low, some don't even know that standards should exist.
From the get go, many years ago, we were told to always say nice things when a critique is given.....I see that as a source of the problem....a continuation of giving every child who participates in an activity, a trophy.
Just as we can ruin our children for the disappointment, defeat and rejection in the real, competitive world, so do we set up those whose work isn't any good, probably never will be.
This site is a POD site...there is little that compares to an "art gallery" in the real world. Artists whose work isn't good enough, can still sell..and do!
Dean, those who are preparing to fight the good fight in the forum, might be warming up the tar to tar and feather you shortly...it only smarts for a little bit...just run fast to cool off!

Thank you, Dean. Very well said, I often go through images and cull out ones that make me think 'what was I thinking?!?!�

One thing that worries me is that I Mark something for deletion in my mind - then I sell a print if it!!! I find that confuses me to no end.

I'd appreciate any ideas on that one and what to deem what I think is no good and what someone else deems as worthy of buying a big print of.

Catch 22 - volume seems to be required to be found. Of course a volume of quality is better than dreck.

The biggest problem is believing the hype of comments, features and awards. Your work is judged not by the number of "way to go" high five comments or group features. Its judged by the buyer against the alternatives.

BINGO!!!!

Ed, you've touched on a salient point...too many people hang on the compliments they receive here to judge their work.....
I have 3 artists who inspire me here, none of whom frequent the threads. I look to their occasional comments for validation when I'm off in an experimental direction that few can appreciate.
On the surface, it is ironic that when they comment, few others do....but it makes perfect sense to me.

Definitely a comment from an artist whose work you admire counts more than the ones simply looking for "tit for tat"

I'm not going to critique anyone's work, but I will say, something that confuses me is I see some here who can really paint, beautiful things to look at, and then they post photographs that pail in comparison, sometimes I think that causes all of their images to look, well, less good.

some people are good at creating. and some are good at seeing. usually a photographer isn't a painter, and a painter isn't a photographer. not always true though. it also depends what they started with. usually a painter will use an image as reference and then correct it in the painting. change the lighting, color, things in the shot. but a photographer has to edit it more precisely using different tools. we can't easily paint out a thing or add a thing without a lot of work. it's two different skills.


painting takes longer and so many have fewer things. so they bulk it up with photos, but unless those photos look really good, they will make everything else look bad in comparison. the same is true for a really good photographer, might be terrible in digital art.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Well said, Dean! Competition brings out the best in some people; challenges them to aim higher and improve their skills, but in others it brings out the excuses and blame-shifting. Critiques won't help them because there's nothing wrong with their work, the critics are just jealous, etc., etc. True introspection is lost on them, and more's the pity. We can all improve on something.

One of the largest threads I started was called "You WILL fail". Simply statistics show most people that try to earn a living selling art will fail to do so.

It is a competitive world. It seems everyone wants to be an artist.

It also seems everyone wants to be nice and supportive. The old "if you can't say anything nice" attitude. So when someone ask for opinions of their work most people don't say anything and a few say "it could sell".

But that doesn't help anyone. A few people here saying the work is nice, along with 100 friends and family on Facebook saying you should sell. gives some people a false sense that selling art is easy.

Some people won't lik this but I think what people SAY really doesn't matter. I don't think the opinion of friends or family matters much. The ONLY true measure of quality work is when complete strangers pay money for that work. Of course that is not the only measure, especially in a place like this with thousands of artist and millions of images but the work should be salable somewhere if not here.

I do much better at shows than I do here though I have sold enough to cover my fees here for many years. I remember the first piece I sold to a stranger. It was pretty special. Not because I made money but because it was good enough for someone to pay for it.

Actions speak louder than words and no action speaks louder than someone taking out that credit card.

To April's point, I have a brother in law whom I was talking to one day, we were looking at the sky, I made the comment that I just couldn't get good sky photographs, he reply "Really I take beautiful sky photos" he was totally serious, well the fact is no he doesn't and he never will, fortunatley for him he doesn't need to worry about it because he isn't a photographer, or involved in art of any kind but it still make the point.

John, I read an article once, I think it was by Tom Till from Moab UT. He made that point that you can't listen to your facebook followers because they will all fawn over your work weather it is good or bad. Sometimes Mike can make me cringe, but he tells the truth, I like that!!!
Terry

Why not just have a separate free site,put up what YOU think are your ten BEST pieces and see what happens.

Quality is important. Honest critique is needed in order to improve. While we must know where we need the improvement we must also know what were doing right, what parts of great. Sometimes people pull others down because there jealous and this is the truth. However it is also true that some gloss over poor quality with excuses. Getting to the guts of what is really needed is not an easy thing. People need kindness especially when they are just not doing quality stuff. We cannot survive on constant attention to whats wrong. Its good to get awards and features to build strength and confidence. Everyone needs a trophy for something...and there can be many that all deserve first place. Among all the first placers there will still be room for ones own differences that separate one from the other that goes without saying. People buy for many reasons.....there are folks out there that want to buy from friends to help support them. You cannot improve either if you have no money for supplies etc.....So realistically there is not just one way to see or do anything and that is good

Sorry

LOL Dean - I picked 20 as my number of photo pages in my collection - somewhere around 500 photos. I like to shoot wildlife the most so every so often I go to this site:
http://fineartamerica.com/profiles/johan-swanepoel.html?tab=artwork or perhaps another, maybe even your site. After I look at a few pages of his work, I get more aggressive culling out mine. I've even thrown out ones that have sold. I can't stand anything I do for a day or two. Then I grab my camera and tell myself, I will do better today... I'm never going to be at the swanepoel level, but I keep improving and lately I've found I take the ones that I threw out and I can touch them up a lot better as I also keep learning to do more with my software. Each day I go through and pick at least one or two to throw to the back of the collection and If I add a new post, I have to get rid of one, regardless of how good I thought it was. Having a lot of volume means you have more to offer the customer, but I have SOME pride so I think 500 is enough to maintain.

As the guardian of a handicapped children for many years I very well understand the value of participation awards and encouragement. BTW last Christmas season one of the best selling images was by a young student with Down's syndrome. The best affirmation is by sales.


One of the nice things about this site it it is truly open sourced with no screening beyond basic standards.

Yes the handicap get lots of support so they can do the things they do. For this young man to be able to make an art piece that was a quality printable piece it required for him to have supplies and access to proper equipment in order to present a quality piece for sale. Then there is all the marketing required. There is alot of support for these handicapped to do this and for this young man it meant he could present his work with quality. And this young man got affirmed in return. Its a nice landscape however its not anything that required any outstanding specific talent outside of the fact that he is challenged by his downs syndrome

If you go to the sold page - quality and even composition sometimes matter not at all - you will wonder why and who on earth would have bought "that". What one likes is not what another sees in an image. What photography I know and understand is because I was a painter and needed photo's/slides of my work. I see work sell, or at least on the sold page, that none of "us", perhaps, would have thought it would sell - to noisy being almost the first thought that pops into your mind about them - but they sell - and apparently they print.
and sometimes it's the "sympathy vote" that sells.

the makers of the art, when they buy it- it ends up there. if someone buys it, and it can't be printed - it ends up there. if it was an event of some kind - it ends up there.

of all the talk of vetting - the sales page - should be vetted. if it can be printed, then it should go on that page, not as soon as it sells. it only breeds more bad images because people use it as a scale.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Absolutely the solds page should not have images on there until its known that it was printable because its giving the information to new up and coming. Of course we are gonna look and see if what is selling looks comparable. I thought my photographs were clear enough from all that I know. With all the alternative styles etc....people seem to be open to more than just the traditional. It can be easy to get lost in all the creativity and forget where the line really is for a quality print

As far as the sympathy vote it is clear to me that a handicap person sometimes has to work 3x as hard to perform in a normal range so it would be more of a vote based on the reality of the condition. Its not being sympathetic its the fact that a handicap is up against great odds. It is a deserved reward even though its not impressive by artistic standards necessarily

@Terry,
Luckily, no customer is buying all of anybody's body of work, so it shouldn't much matter if one media is superior to another in your opinion. ;)

I have many on faa who only look at my photographs....always very surprised to see that I paint.-

""Terry Mair

7 Hours Ago

I'm not going to critique anyone's work, but I will say, something that confuses me is I see some here who can really paint, beautiful things to look at, and then they post photographs that pail in comparison, sometimes I think that causes all of their images to look, well, less good.''

What you said bothered me, Terry.....such a blanket statement.

@Marlene............I was so dumbstruck I couldn't reply to Terry................thank you for doing so. "less good" ! it pales into insignificance! such a comment.

..

"If you go to the sold page - quality and even composition sometimes matter not at all - you will wonder why and who on earth would have bought "that".
(Roy)

Sometimes people buy their own stuff online. :D

Do self-purchases appear on the sold page? I've bought a few of my own for various reasons and nobody commented on it, when other people have bought something I usually get a few congratulatory messages.

I was just looking at youpic.com and I kind of like that they have a feature where you can anonymously rate different aspects of an image.

Composition
Creativity
Technical Quality
Content

I'm not sure how helpful it would be considering it is based on opinions that might not be educated, but I like the idea that people can get feedback on where they need help.

Your own self purchases do not show on that page.

But, tastes vary and you may thing really? But they think, REALLY!

That's why you have your wife buy them for you.

Mike- Self purchases do not appear. Some have others buy their work, true. Perhaps their gallery. But self purchases for stocking up still represent sales. One can only buy so much of their own work without having some distribution. And it seems artist's proxies (wives?) or their galleries come in and stock up often.

It is true that images go on the sold page that can not be printed as is. But most of them end up being adjusted and printed.

There is very little event photography sold here. Anyone can see that.

The recently sold page is accurate enough. The one on the front page.
http://fineartamerica.com/recentprintsales.html

Oh, Edward, you may have been joking but that's a great idea----after all sales generate more sales!

Many of us who are buying our own work are selling those prints locally so even though it looks like we are not selling we really are.

And yes, I have my own work hanging in my home as do most of my family members and neighbors!

i thought it didn't but i remember someone saying that their thing did appear in there, so i don't know.

i've seen event photography here, and i've seen it on the sales pages. get togethers, pets, dog shows, etc.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

@Vivian and Marlene, yes I am sure it did not come across as I meant it.
So let me say, if I could paint, like some of the painters here, I would never publish another photo, that is a talent I wish I had!!! I do not.
So I guess when I go to look at people's paintings I get distracted by the photographs that are there, I love to look at great paintings, I like to look at great photographs, so I guess it's just me, sorry for the misunderstanding!!
Terry

Terry....FOCUS!

Not really sure what you mean by that, it makes perfect sense to me!

Terry your photographs are beautiful.......I do both more because I want to expand my language like a writer may want to try more than one kind of writing. There is no way to please everyone. I think the buyers I attract will understand my work.

Did someone say Elephant In The Room ? I heard my ears ring and couldn't resist. One of my most popular images :)

When you are looking at great paintings, Terry, focus so that you are not distracted by what you find mediocre.

Thank you L, I guess it just depends on where a person is coming from, as for me I guess I just envy painters, I have always wished I had that talent, I admire painters, I have all kinds of painting stuff in the house, I know I will never have that talent, I've tried, and for me I just have a hard time figuring out why some one with that ability would want to do anything else, it is a gift!!!!!

Terry, I get what you say , too, about photography mixed with original paintings/artworks.....and you might be interested to know, that I took what you said to heart, and had a complete revision of my profile page, and placed only non-photography together, and then, photography, and then some drawings...and it works as a way to clarify my own priorities.......thanks for your thoughts !

Terry, I've been a professional painter since 1969. I started out doing portraits. I got bored...I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to paint portraits for the rest of their lives...I then moved into landscapes, same thing happened.....finally settled into abstract expression that served me well for decades, though the subjects changed and ultimately disappeared.
I know artists that paint the same thing for years, never changing, never growing, never experimenting or venturing out of the little box they created.
I see abstracts everywhere.....when I see them around me in real life, I like to document them. I am not a photographer, have never claimed to be, yet I've placed in some prestigious photography exhibitions and contests.....all with my iphone.
After a thousand abstract images, I needed to blend them with others and even with pieces of my paintings...I'm still painting but with photographs now.
Why? Beause I am still alive and working....still morphing into the next series and hope to have many more before I'm finished here.
Hope that answers your question. This is my journey.

I understand what Marlene is saying. I started with watercolor figures then went to pastel portraits then acrylic hearts & florals then birds and horses etc.....and now I seem to have this thing with photos. I also love to write poetry which I have combined with paintings. For me its a language from which I express...the medium is secondary. I am an artist and I cannot claim to be an expert in any one medium. But I have been given awards for my portfolio of course they were seen in there original format not via scans. As a stage performing artist years ago I know that you can suck if the lighting isn't right or what have you. Some people just stick with one thing

Dean, I couldn't agree more - I look at some stuff her and in galleries and think it's dreadful, yet others don't.

One man's junk is another man's art. Just look at Gursky's 1999 lauded photoshop image, Rhein II which sold for $4.3 million! I just roll my eyes and think of Tony Hancock's classic 1961 film, The Rebel (US title - Call me Genius), which sums up the art world in my view :-)

- Richard Reeve
reevephotos.com

I would add that periodically I think that I should cull some of my work that I am no longer happy with, but then I get a sale of one of them! Meanwhile, my more technically correct images don't sell. Point is you cannot always second guess your customers.

- Richard Reeve
reevephotos.com

No kidding Richard, I seen that photo for the first time a couple of days ago, who knows, there is an exhibit at the Kimball art museum in Park City UT. where some one wrapped buildings in colors of cloth and then photographed them, I guess they are selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars...go figure.
My wife and I, and I know I will get kicked for this one too, were going through an art gallery in Park City a few months ago, we went back into one corner of the gallery when I herd my snicker I looked to see what she was looking at, they where drawings by Picasso, I explained to here who he was and then yeah I know, to me they look like 2nd grade work, but they sell for millions, then there are some really good artists who sell nothing.
The eye of the beholder.

I think we all have elephants in the room. Do you remember thinking, especially in the beginning, that your work was pretty cool (it's always your latest work)? It was only after much time had passed, growth and always seeing better work that was better than yours that maybe it wasn't as great as you thought!

Most of the people I see in the forum wondering why their work isn't selling have been pretty humble in asking for critiques, I don't know that I would have been that brave. Maybe they can't see yet how far they need to go but neither did you or I!

We still may feel our work is pretty awesome but we have learned the lesson and temper our thinking, knowing there are others out there that are better than we are and that one day we may look at that image and think "meh!."

We need to treat other artists as we would like to be treated. If you want to give a critique let them know the good stuff first, there's always something good and with time and encouragement they will get better. ,

Any one and everyone's judgement of what is good is not a constant. I just read that Van Gogh thought Starry Starry Night a poor painting and refused to include it in a package of work he sent for sale. Today it is one of the 2 or 3 most loved paintings in the world. We are by and large poor judges of art.

I knew Robert Duncan when he was poor, he and his family living in a small house they rented from a friend. His western art is, in my opinion fantastic, especially his Indian paintings, he couldn't sell enough of them to make a living so he decided that if he couldn't sell his western art he would paint what he wanted to paint...his children, now he's not so poor, and he sells his western art right along with his more country kitchen for lack of a better term type of art, so go figure, when it comes to art we are all fickle I believe.

I would've thought most artists first thought was that their work was the problem and not the site or having not been found yet.

Nicole, not if they are being honest with themselves...not if they even bother to check out their competition....

the recently sold page does bring the " is it just my work?" into question lol

Great words, Dean! Im always catching myself on the same thoughts when Im going through such discussions.... And also very critical to my own photography.
And I would tell honestly that for the photography inspiration and the true professional level Im going out of FAA as my real source of the creativity, inspiration and tutorial is 500px and 1x.com where Im truly melting with admire of the fantastic masters of photography in the different genres and their highest level... Dont know what keeping them out of FAA. I see here very few of them.
I also catching myself on the thoughts that prefer here works of the artists with paintings ....

Richard - so very true, never possible to understand the choice of customers, in my hamble opinion I do have much more interesting images in my gallery than some of the works I sold....:-)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/17/most-expensive-art-2013_n_4454930.html

I'd buy the monet

personally, I don't have that kind of monet'.

Seriously though. How much of famous, and especially modern art would you judge as good, (or bad) if it and the artist wasn't famous?

What Kevin said is right on the spot:
.......... Any one and everyone's judgment of what is good is not a constant ...

Who are we to judge ??!!

Interesting discussion so far, great points raised.

It's true that I too have been surprised by sales of works that I was thinking about culling. Yes, you never know what will sell. But with the bar constantly being raised here at FAA, the chances of slipping one past the goalie (because that is what these sales feel like to me) is just decreasing by the day. That's the point of this post: some realism in terms of commercial viability. Why would I offer a horrible shot of the Brooklyn bridge in full midday sun for sale when there are tons of really accomplished works of the same subject available? Because you never know?

Christine asks who are we to judge? We don't, and that's the problem. The buying public does though, with their dollars which they can only spend once. Instead of an endless stream of non-descriptive, mid-afternoon shots that people can pretty much take themselves nowadays with any halfway decent smartphone, doesn't it make sense to also look at what you are actually bringing to the table as an artist? What you are actually adding in terms of value so that people will drop cash on it?

Anytime anyone asks why they are not selling, the answer is always marketing, keywords, find your audience. My point is that in many cases that would simply be a waste of time. There have been several members posting that they have started marketing and followed all the advice available in the forum. To no avail, still no sales. So what conclusion can we draw from that? Are we still going to maintain that every single work on the internet has a buyer that simply hasn't been found yet?

I just did a search on FAA for 'art' and selected the best sellers. The number one guy has just over 30 works in his portfolio; Smith Catholic Art is featured in the top-10 twice while her portfolio only has five works. http://fineartamerica.com/art/all/all/all. Now, I do not personally like every single work on the first page, but there is something they have in common. Quality. Sure, marketing plays a role too, but they are all accomplished, commercially viable works.

Marketing, keywording, finding your audience - yes they are all important. More important though, especially for long-term, sustainable success is producing quality.

Dean,
I am completely in agreeance, as you know.
To answer the question "who are we to judge?"

Each artist is the 'who' to judge.it's called critiquing one's own work....until one learns HOW to, one has no ability to produce quality...just haphazard, lucky product on rare occasion.
Once the artist can judge, trust me, the buying audience ( who judges whether you like it or not) will realize what you are offering.
And that leads us back to the OP...some of our art just isn't as good as we'd like to think....better yet, replace that word "think" with "feel."

I actually get what Terry was saying and see it happen a lot. Fantastic paintings or pencil work and bleh photos. Yes, some people do both very well Our very own Marlene and my primary competition in Pensacola. The many is both a gifted painter and photographer. But often the photos take away from the wonderful paintings.

I am usually of the mind that if I can't say something nice I say nothing at all. (I just wait for Mike to post.) Every so often I will give a blunt critique but I change accounts so that critique doesn't come from a blue box.

thank you, JC, but I'm no photograher...have never claimed to be. I take quick snaps and have no clue what I captured until I pull them up on the computer. I will never invest in any camera equipment cuz I'm just not a photographer. If I want a macro shot, I get real close, that's the extent of my interest in photography.
My captures with iphone are part of a greater process that is presently unfolding.
I'll keep you posted!

A little bird was flying south for the winter. It was so cold; the bird froze up and fell to the ground in a large field. While it was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on it. As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, it began to realize how warm it was. The dung was actually thawing him out! He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy.

A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug him out and ate him!

The morals of this story are:

Not everyone who drops dung (quality is the key to selling) on you is your enemy.
Not everyone who gets you out of dung( beautiful portfolio) is your friend.
And when you're in deep dung (no sales again this month), keep your mouth shut!

Sometimes it's an issue of being in the minority of what you like. I like a lot of stuff that when I see it in someone's portfolio, I will leave a comment, and it's often the only comment they have received on that piece and it's an image that has been posted for quite a while. It's difficult to sell that kind of art when your audience is limited.

In this case, it has nothing to do with their work not being good enough to sell, it's the - well, what the public would maybe consider the "obscure" subject matter. I like old, cracked concrete walls and that sort of thing, for example. Never see them on the sales page.

At what point do you personally "sell out" and post stuff you don't like just to sell? I was thinking of posting some spot color photos, but I generally don't like spot color. I've seen four of them on the recently sold pages in the last couple of days, so they do sell.....but I just can't get myself to do it.

Mary, you are correct. I too have odd works in my portfolio that I know will have limited appeal. But I know that going in. A lot of photographers here (including myself) like rusty, old things, derelict buildings etc etc. Fun to shoot, but difficult to sell due to limited commercial appeal. But for this kind of photography, the same things apply as to any other kind of photography: it's probably not going to look its best shot at two in the afternoon in the horrible midday sun, for example. The succesfull photographer (in this context the photographer who sells) will know this, come back when the light is optimal and has a much higher chance to make the sale.

I was on a tourist boat on the river the other day; it was around two in the afternoon and the light was just horrible. On board was this lady with a camera who spent the entire hour and a half machine-gunning everything in sight with her camera. I was sitting back, enjoying the view and watching her antics. I was also taking notes for any future visit. I knew through trial and error that shooting in this light would just be pointless so I didn't bother; the light just wasn't there. If I want to produce something that even has a slight chance of selling, I will need to come back earlier or later in the day, perhaps hire a private boat to take me around.

The lady had some serious gear. Big Canon, expensive zoom lens. I had the feeling that she was harvesting images for some commercial purpose. Let's say she was a FAA contributor. Comes home, copies the 1000 or so photos that she took over the course of a couple of hours from a moving boat to her computer, processes them and uploads a selection here. She waits, waits and waits some more, but nobody buys them. She posts here, and gets the 'you need to market, more keywords, add a description' advice. She follows the advice but still doesn't sell. The reason she doesn't sell is not a lack of marketing; she doesn't sell because she was shooting in horrible light from a fast-moving boat and there are hundreds if not thousands of works that are simply more appealing by photographers who do wait for the right light.

The selling-out question is interesting, but perhaps irrelevant in the context of this discussion. I'm not suggesting adding subjects/works to your portfolio that you don't like. It's more about doing it right if you are going to do it to begin with and having the honesty to admit where it stands, how appealing it is, in relation to the competition. And having the guts to admit that perhaps you blew it this time and move on to produce something better rather than wasting time trying to sell something that nobody wants.

@Craig. Great story :)

Mary, I understand what you are saying, this last summer I had a booth at a local festival here in Midway, "Midway Swiss Days" and right across from me was a booth by Jon McNaughton, a Utah artist, I talked to him a little in the morning, then in the afternoon of the second day, considering I sold very little (but it was my first booth...ever, and I was learning) I asked him for some advise, there was another photographer there who makes very large prints of Utah, he did sell some 8' prints for a lot of money, anyway Jon complimented me on my work then told me, in his opinion, that the difference was first the other photographer was better known (that's true) and he was selling almost over saturated color prints of places people like to go, then he told me some of his, Jon's, favorite works are the ones that never seam to sell.

So I think at some point we need to put aside what we may feel are true works of art, and focus on what people want to buy if we expect to sell in large volume, I don't really know if that is possible or not, it seams like each of us are hard wired as to what we like, and want to paint, photograph, or whatever we do as artists. So is it possible to "sell out" or not, I only know I decided that day that I was going to try and photograph places people like to go along side of what I think is pretty.

Terry shoots a swan.



Dean shoots a swan.

Terry, I hope you don't mind me using one of your images to illustrate the point I am trying to make. Two images of swans. Now we could argue about tastes differing, there being a buyer out there for my swan photo etc etc. I could spend hours uploading it to all the social media that are out there. Write a long-winded description, add more key words. But let's face it. Between the two I would buy Terry's swans. His work is clearly superior with far greater commercial appeal. What would be better for me, marketing my swan or getting off my butt and trying to at least match Terry's work?

is the elephant in the room pink...

@ Dean, I completely understand that analysis. My husband keeps trying to get me to shoot things and go places that I know will not yield good lighting, or are places that I just don't get that many good things to shoot. I know people like that lady you mention. If it were me on that boat, I would be looking for the corners and bits and pieces of graphic, geometric stuff right on the boat that works in harsh lighting. I wouldn't be trying to shoot the scenery.

@Terry - yes, I can particularly relate to your "almost over saturated color prints". I push mine, but I always back off when it starts to look artificial to me. Maybe I should just give up and make some garish versions.......

@Tom. I asked. It said no, but the hue from the Ektar film used is kind of weird.

I think a big problem photographers face today is the pervasiveness of cameras in the world.

Everyone has one. Everyone thinks they can take shots of anything simply by leaving their camera in "Auto" and pushing a button (often in the middle of the day).



This image has sold well for me. I sell a lot of 8x10's and a few 24x36 acrylics of it. I have noticed, at shows, there are two man views of this photograph. The ones that come in and say "I have hummingbirds at my house I could take a picture like that" and the ones that have actually TRIED to do it. This shot took over 400 shots to get.

Point is if people THINK they can do it themselves they aren't likely to buy. Why would they?

There is a lighthouse near where I live. Probably the most photographed object within 50 miles. I have shots of it. I both hate taking pictures there and like it. But I try to take the shots that others haven't. It is VERY hard to try to come up with something different in regards to this lighthouse. These are probably the three best examples of trying to do it a bit different...



This one is different because it is a dangerous shot to get. Many people will not go stand on a dune with a storm coming across the lake right towards them. It got pretty hairy and scary while I was taking this shot. But I worry about what will happen to my camera more than what will happen to me.



This one was taken during the last blood moon in October. I checked where the moon would be on-line before I decided to make the 1 hour drive. I had to leave my house at 4am to get to the lake and get into position before the eclipse started. I was there over two hours taking different shots as the moon changed and set. It was windy and cold and there were other people there (someone's flash was going off, I wonder how good their images were).



This is another good seller for me. I only sell it 16x20 and above. It was taken during hurricane Sandy in 2012. It was nasty as hell out there that day. The wind was about 65 mph and it felt like being sandblasted. I didn't stay long but was able to get some shots.


I am not just trying to "show off with these images. I am simply trying to make a point. t is easy as hell to go to this lighthouse on a warm summer evening and get the sunset shot. That is why there are 1,287,456 images of this lighthouse at sunset. There are simply fewer images of this lighthouse during a storm, an eclipse and a hurricane. They are harder shots to get and because of that they are more likely to sell. Only a lazy bum will take the easy "pretty" shots of the lighthouse...



I have sold this shot as well, so there goes my theory!

On my last trip to the Tetons I went up a road that I had never been on before, it gave a good view of the Mountain range, it was late morning, and the lighting sucked, wile I was there I met two other couples and talked to them, the first couple commented on how much haze there was, and asked what I thought would be a good time, I told them what I thought, they asked what I did for a living, I told them I was a photographer, the husband proceeded to tell me that he could get his photos printed at Costco for cheep, and he could frame them and hang them on the wall, and change them when he wanted, I so ok cool.
The second couple, much older, and the husband used canes to get around, they asked the same question, I told them the same thing. Early the next morning just before sunrise I was standing waiting for the light to get better when the older couple showed up, we took several photos, and talked, after the light show was over, and the sun was fully up I decided to leave, that is when the first couple, the Costco guy, and his wife showed up to get their "sunrise Photos" so...

Yeah....there are a lot of those around, Terry.

I got scolded here from someone giving me a critique about a few that I have posted because I did take them in the middle of the day. They really aren't bad and they get a lot of views, but the thing is, at the time I took them, my dad way dying, so I could ONLY get out in the middle of the day, and getting out with the camera was the only stress relief I had from a dying parent....so I posted anyway.

A problem, Mary, is that a potential buyer doesn't care what prevented you from shooting at a more photogenic hour. All they're interested in is whether the image satisfies their aesthetic needs and will look good on their wall.

I think my own gallery is stocked with oddball subject matter, and that's why my sales aren't where I'd like them to be yet.

I'm always looking for the formula. I'm willing to change my style, but deciding which direction in which to go - one that will create more profitable art, yet still allow me to create art that is true to me and fun for me, is the stickler. I'm very proud of the art I do have in my gallery. I worked hard on it, and some people have liked it enough to purchase it, and that's very satisfying.

I can't help but remember, in regards to the search for a formula, an old movie I once watched with my mom - "The Glenn Miller Story". Glenn Miller was a famous Big Band leader in the 1940's. The movie had a scene in which Glenn was looking for his "sound" - that is, a way to make his band sound different from all the other big bands out there. He did eventually find it, by serendipity - his trumpeter cut his lip and Glenn gave the lead horn role to a saxophone (if I remember rightly). and that's how Glenn finally found his "sound".

Serendipity or not, I'm going to keep creating art pieces, but I also plan to start focusing on writing AND art, which are best expressed, for me at least, through comics. We'll see what happens.

Murray made a good point here: "All they're interested in is whether the image satisfies their aesthetic needs and will look good on their wall."

And that's very true. The buyer doesn't care what it took me to get the shot, whether I shot it with my low priced camera or the more expensive one, whether I shot it with a less than stellar lens, whether I shot it in auto, or whether I shot it in mid-day. The buyer doesn't care about the work I did to make the photo the best it can be - does it look good on their wall is all that's important.

My best selling works to date have been shot with a low end camera that was passed down to me and they were shot in auto. Correction - sports mode. I now have a more expensive camera, better lenses, and I now shoot in aperture priority. And still, my older pieces taken with the old gear in auto far outsell the newer ones. I feel, however, once the newer ones have been "out there" long enough, they will begin to outsell the older ones. (At least I hope they do, or I will begin to doubt my gear investments over the past 2 years!)

As for shooting in mid-day...I know when the "good light" is and I definitely try for that, leaving many mornings at 4-5 am to get where I need to be so the light will be right. Do I toss those mid-day photos? Nope. Because I feel what I do with my photos AFTER the shot is what turns them into something "wall worthy". And if successful is defined as "selling", than I guess I'm successful despite the shortcomings of my gear, my shooting mode and my timing -- because I *do* make a full time living selling my work {though despite all my efforts here, the bulk of my sales each month are NOT from FAA}.

The problem isn't whether one's work is WORTHY [or not] to hang on someone's wall, as that's up to the discerning, or not so discerning, eye of the buyer! It's plain to see what they are 'collecting' here on a daily basis, which may not appeal to you or I in any way! So, what does 'good enough' have to do with it? Not much.
As both artist [painter] & photographer, I've sold well in galleries for years. I also find that most people enjoy that one-on-one give & take when meeting the artist in person. We do that the best we can here by offering a well-penned bio, cool avatar, interesting galleries & descriptions of images.
I have taken the time, as well, to obtain hi res images of my original work in order to offer quality prints. Plus, I carefully tend my gallery, what goes up and/or comes down, perfectionist that I am. Though I have received awards, had my work published and sold around the world, I STILL do not sell that well on FAA. It doesn't matter that I'm an ACTIVE member: hosting contests, supporting others, creating a blog, joining/posting in the discussion fun and group activity. That's just more telling about who I am as a person or personality.
I agree with those before me saying that the main problem re non-$ales on FAA is that there are just TOO many images and only certain member's work being 'promoted' or seen. The fact that the 'collections' & recently uploaded, which most new viewers/potential buyers will gravitate to first, does not include the general [member] population is both disappointing & frustrating. Still, we/I soldier on.

Too bad excuses don't count. Only the final image counts.

I rolled out of bed at the Old Faithful Inn and stumbled out into the freezing cold (pre coffee) to capture Old Faithful erupting as the sun began to rise. There were a handful of other people milling around but nothing like the crowds at midday.

Talk about a mature subject. I figured it wouldn't sell much but I've sold it an number of times on a stock site.

Wonderful thread, Dean. Much to glean. Also, in agreement with the lovely Brooks, to the point that I don't care if I sell here - as long as I can be here, and share with you all.......because, to quote Brooks.........."I agree with those before me saying that the main problem re non-$ales on FAA is that there are just TOO many images and only certain member's work being 'promoted' or seen. The fact that the 'collections' & recently uploaded, which most new viewers/potential buyers will gravitate to first, does not include the general [member] population is both disappointing & frustrating. Still, we/I soldier on."

I soldier on, and thank you all who've cared enough to speak to me/share yourselves, the Art. I am lucky to have this option.

Dean, I have to agree 100 percent with you. That is how I have always thought, but is it right. I don't think so anymore. That doesn't mean I put bad quality work up for sale I usually delete the ones I don't like strait from the camera. If we are here to sell, who cares what sells. As all of us have seen here and all over the net, the best quality does not always sell, and sub-par quality or not the highest quality can sell.
I think it depends on what your goal is,
Lots of sales or branding yourself a certain way

Thanks for your honest assessment of the quality of art on FAA (including your own). It has helped me rethink what I have posted so far and what I will post in the future. I need to take some time being honest with myself and my submissions.

There is a solution for both trains of thought....if faa gave you 30 slots only for your $30....would you take a serious look at what you'd keep?
Would you be willing to pay $100 for 100? $500 for 500?
Would you just walk away cuz its always been unlimited for premium or would you take a sober look at the quality of your body of work?
The playing field would be leveled....whadda ya think?

I can't imagine that the playing field would be leveled. There are too many of those who have enough money, so they don't care about how much they have to pay to upload a ton of pictures, and there are plenty of brilliant but starving artists who can only afford $30.

Amen Christine!!!!
I thought $30.00 was a bargain, not sure $100.00 would be, but I might change my mind if my photos started selling!

ok, No fee and only 20 images.....what then?
I belong to lots of those.....and nobody has issues with what is fair.

The issue with that Marlene is figuring out which 30 or 100 or whatever.

The reality for me is I have about 30 images that sell somewhat regularly. The other 400ish image that have sold have sold once or twice. That is around 20% of the images I put up sell.

Are they all stars? Nope. I sold three 36 inch prints to one buyer of an image I thought was bleh. For that matter if limited my portfolio to my top 100 images that I thought would sell my best seller would not be there.

I have many MANY image that I would deem not good enough but someone else did. Now, if my whole portfolio didn't have some star power to generate sales and enough sales where the good enough images coattail a bit.

if it was only 20 images then of course people would have to chose what THEY thought was their best work but what they considered to be their best may not be what sells.

Thanks for the kind words, Vivian. Appreciate the re-share. Yep, who knows what will sell, other than what has? Lol. How does one know what's going to appeal to whom, really? We can only upload what we like & think others might as well, trusting that, through OUR efforts, 'here, there & everywhere', it will be noticed, and loved enough, to make it on a collector's wall, gifted to someone special or sent as a greeting! Hard work, plus our selection & quality of images that we post for the 'world' to see, keeps the hope of sales alive And, on that note, gotta go upload my newest!

i'm not paying for the amount i sell. no. because i don't know what will sell. being the internet you need lots of choices. if i narrowed down to best sellers maybe it would work, but even then i may miss out on a big sale. all the work i have is A+ i wouldn't send it if it wasn't. i have almost 2600 things - each unique, it would be financially impossible to pay something like that. and still - people would upload the same junk because if you don't know what your looking for - it won't fix the problem and the better sellers wouldn't be here.

there are many things on here that i've sold only once - but made $500 in the process.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

@John Crothers. Interesting post, thanks for the share. Here's the thing: that last photo you posted, the lazy bum, easy sunset photo of the pier is actually visually appealing and has commercial potential.

I'm talking about shooting this at noon, in bright sunlight or overcast weather, with a crooked horizon and over-the-top processing. Marketing that type of work would probably be pointless.

Going with Marlee's thought.....In a real life gallery you have limited wall space. BUT you have a certain amount of expected traffic. Plus promotion by the gallery, contacts, mailing list, advertising, etc.

Here online one could limit themself to 20-30 images but you have not guarantee of traffic. Each image is another page for the search engine to index.

....

The other thing is the web has a huge, diverse audience. I've sold a wide range of image from food photography to black and white landscapes to animals to barns.

In a real life gallery you have an idea of visitors demographics. The gallery probably has a focus. Here you might have someone buying an image for their restaurant, home, business, office, etc.

in a real life gallery setting all the other images in that gallery as a whole attracts the audience. online though, the item i advertise only invites the person in, they may buy the thing in the other section however. and that is true, demographics do play a role. so it would be a little bit easier trying to guess what images would work best in a gallery type of setting.

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

"I'm talking about shooting this at noon, in bright sunlight or overcast weather, with a crooked horizon and over-the-top processing. Marketing that type of work would probably be pointless. "

You are right Dean I am sure there are thousands of images like that of this lighthouse. Not to mention the above shot with a hundred people in the frame. I rarely go to that lighthouse in the summer. Just too damn crowded.

The lighthouse (and many other landmarks) are easy to shoot. They don't move and are easy to get to.

I belonged to a camera club in that town and one way it really helped me is they would have a monthly competition with a new subject every month. When I was shooting for the competition I always discounted the first few things that immediately came to mind. If, for example, the subject was the color red I would immediately know I wasn't going to take a picture of a red barn or a rose. Why? Because I knew there would be a bunch of shots of those things in the contest. What I ended up with was this...



Funny thing is they wouldn't let it in the contest because of the subject. But I have sold this image here even though I am not sure who would buy it and why. It is actually one of my most viewed images here.

I guess I am saying that even if your image is good, it may be a subject that is overdone. Of course it is very hard to shoot something that hasn't been done before. I have a couple that I think fit into that category and they get good reactions at shows and sell well for me. I guess I am at a point where the technical side isn't an issue but finding something worth shooting is. I have been known to not shoot something simply because I think "it's been done".

Sales is only a problem, if you EXPECT to sell in today's art world. THAT's the elephant - the EXPECTATION, not the comparative appeal of the art. But I think the person posting this topic already covered this.

OK.... barring crappy work -- how on earth does one get seen in this place? I haven't figured it out... haha.

"seen" by whom? Potential buyers? ... hahahahahahahahaha

JC, the OP is saying that perhaps one's work is just not all that good....so my question is about choosing quality work, not about posting the work you know sells well....that would be a snap...just look at your sales.

Robert is right, it is about expectations, and realistic expectations in particular. And about whether marketing is really the key to sales when the quality just isn't there.

A while back, this American diner opened up just around the corner from where I live. It was in a grade-A location on a very, very busy street with plenty of foot traffic. The interior was very nice. It even had those little mini jukeboxes on the table so you could choose your own music to listen to. The menu consisted of proven favorites: hamburgers, hero sandwiches, mac and cheese. The price was reasonable. This may not sound like a big deal in the US, but here in Thailand it is. Or rather, it could be. It closed down recently and is now being converted to something else. I called up my friends Potsie, Chachi and Leather Tuscadero one day to try the food. It was awful. Gave it a second chance but nope: still awful. Food is like art in that respect: there is no accounting for personal taste. The place may even have had die-hard fans for all I know. The restaurant got everything right, expect for the most important thing. The food just plain sucked. So we can argue on a philosophical level that there is nothing either good or bad but that thinking makes it so (after Shakespeare), but consumers apparently thought the food was bad and took their money elsewhere.

Here in Bangkok, we also have a food truck selling burgers. The menu is very limited and the truck doesn't even sell French fries. People are queuing up to get their food there. There are no frills (except maybe the hipster-cool appeal of buying your food at a truck), the product just rocks. The owner doesn't really advertise, except for a facebook page. He doesn't need to advertise, because other people do the advertising for him. Friends tell friends who tell friends etc.

One place had everything right except for product quality and went under; the other is a guy in a converted van with little overhead making a killing.

Make something that is really good and others will do the advertising for you. That is at the heart of successfully using social media for marketing. You can schlep that generic, just-like-everything-else-out-there photo or painting all over the internet and not be successful if it isn't commercially viable. Period.

A while back, there was this French gentlemen on FAA whose photo of a rainbow over a town was picked up by a weather channel. It next sold like hotcakes for a while, and this one guy with one photo in his portfolio (he joined FAA just to sell this photo) way outsold all us 'artistes' here. He had a great product that marketed itself and after having taken the photo all he had to do was sit back and count his money.

I would like to show the image but my search for 'Rainbow France' didn't yield any relevant results. It did, of course, yield tons of unrelated works. If I were a buyer looking for a rainbow in France I would have a WTF moment and then probably take my business elsewhere. Another nice albeit ironic reminder of why outside marketing is important for selling online...

My father in law judges art by how realistic it looks. The more like a photograph the painting is the better the art.

For the general public it seems that the familiar sells. Art dealing with familiar pop culture, icons, celebrities, sports people, familiar places -- things they can relate to. Might not be high brow but some level it connects. Let's face it, if someone is searching on Google for art they are not going to be typing in something like "Suprematism" or "Neo-plasticism".

You are correct Edward. But even if you do 'Suprematism' or 'Neo-plasticism' it has to have commercial appeal and be top-in-its class in order to sell. Marketing any less will most likely be an exercise in frustration.

I'd have to say that I've seen basic stick figure art sell on here, so "not that good" isn't really the issue here.
It's not about Good or Bad, it's about what works for and speaks to the buyer.
Art is in the eye of the beholder. I've seen amazing pieces not sell, and I've seen simple, basic or just plain blobs sell.
It's really about what someone is looking for. It could be a special interest piece, or something that matches a color space in their office or home.
It could be a specific size they need with specific colors or subject.

If your art doesn't stand out from the other 10,000 images in that category it may be good, but won't sell as often as it's among 10,000 other great works.

In my time on FAA I can say I've seen far more pieces of great art and photography than all around bad ones. And again, BAD ART is really subjective. I've seen blobs of paint splattered around sell very well and amazing photographs never move.

Customers buy art and photography for several reasons, typically the subject matter. Second, maybe they know or like the artist, third it works with the color scheme of an area they are decorating.

Don't sweat it, enjoy creating art and images and if someone buys one of your works feel grateful and smile. I do!

I wish I sucked. I would rather research nuclear spectroscopy. There's a whip cracking every second of my life forcing me to paint. I actually hate to paint. LOL!

In my time on FAA I can say I've seen far more pieces of great art and photography than all around bad ones.

Aaron, that's the thing. The bad art - instead of good and bad, I've tried using commercially viable with all this ensues by the way - sinks to the bottom and just doesn't get noticed. I see commercially unviable work all the time, including in my own portfolio. What I am proposing is that IF you want to sell, that a good, honest look at what exactly you are trying to sell might be more fruitful than posting it all over the internet in a spray and pray effort in the hopes that you might get lucky enough that someone will spend some money on it.

Of course good and bad is subjective in terms of art, but we have also created an overly PC environment here where suggesting that someone's work might not be selling because it just doesn't have any commercial appeal is almost a crime. Instead, it's all about lack of marketing and more keywords or so they say. What sells is just a quick search away. There is so much fantastic work here on this site alone. If I upload a snapshot of a flower taken in horrible mid afternoon light, is it reasonable to expect it to sell? Am I not selling because I lack keywords and/or marketing? Hey, it might sell - plenty of people have confirmed unexpected sales - but realistically speaking my time would be spent wiser being outside with my camera improving my craft then twittering my latest self-declared art work which took me seconds to make and could be taken by anyone with a cell phone and/or camera.

This is not about good or bad, but about having realistic expectations and acknowledging that it takes a lot of work to produce something worthwhile.

I've run critique threads in the past. I try to critique from the perspective of sales potential. Some people really appreciate that, others chime in when I can't see a market for a piece and say things like "WELL I LOVE IT".....still others set me up, i critique a piece, and then they mention how many times it has sold.

Overall though, I agree with the sentiment. In most of my helpful posts I try to let people know that Step 1 is ALWAYS make high quality work people want to hang on their walls. Without that, you are screwed.

I posted my images here to print for myself. I was looking for a POD site to use simply to print my own work ... I wandered into my sales thing one day because paypal sent me a message saying they were depositing money in my account. I actually thought it was a scam of some sort ... lol ...

Personally, I cannot really believe people buy the type of portraits I pastel. They are images of other peoples pets for the most part ... lol ...

After I sold the first few, I joined some groups that do likes and votes and such, but I couldn't keep up, so I haven't touched the groups or done any marketing for a while ... Seems like stuff sells when I ignore it ... lol ...

As far as critiques, people post on critique groups often, asking how to improve the image, and all they get is positive "Love it! Perfect! You are so talented" ... etc. If they are genuinely looking for ways to improve, I am always happy to send a PM with a few idea's. Not that I am a guru, but a lot of artwork is lacking simple things, like attention to values. Huge improvements can be made with very little effort sometimes :)

Mela, if you look at recent sales you will see that 'crappy' work does sell! Lol. So, yeah, you never know what's going appeal to the masses...or the individual buyer. I mean lots of folks have family & friends who do them a [big] favor by buying their work, not because it's great art, or close to, but because it 'theirs'!
So, to borrow a phrase, just 'go with the flow', post your best images w/the best quality possible, bring anyone & everyone on board to view your gallery/website, offer a interesting variety of work w/descriptions and include a good photo & a bio that is truthful and somewhat entertainingly-penned. Then, cross fingers that 'they' will buy. Like I said, I'm as active as I can be and still don't sell well here, even though I do in the real world. It's true, some members use the site mainly for printing their images, which they sell elsewhere...and, if they make a sale or two here, then they're good to go.
Re critiques, Heather, I've seen 'stunning', the most over-used word on FAA, to describe work that [yay!] really IS stunning...and a whole lotta stuff that really is NOT! I think it's because its ez to type. Lol. It's great that you are honest when critiquing other's work and actually take the time to answer questions re. Just to wrap up, there is no magic formula re sales, what will or won't make the grade. I know fantastic artists/photographers who never sell. Go figure.

Heather, you really not value your works as much as they deserved! :-) I would understand the words you said maybe about somebody's else works, but not yours for sure!

Here are a few images I've sold recently. As you can see there's quite a range of style and simplicity.

Thomas,
The main problem with critiques is that not everyone understands what it is or how to do it.
I will suggest yet again...learn how to critique your own work and then you won't have to ask other people!

Amen, Marlene.

Marlene the critical eye of someone else is never a bad thing though. I progressed much more quickly because I had solid mentors and peers to bounce ideas and work off of.

External critiquing can be helpful, but internal critiquing - being honest about your work - is far more helpful I think. External critiquing is the next stage and to be honest maybe it's like going to a shrink to hear someone else tell you what you actually already knew to begin with but were afraid to admit to yourself. Regardless, it's cool that you are taking the time to help others advance Thomas and I've read your previous threads with great interest. I might post one of my works in the future.

@ Heather: fantastic news and congrats on your success. Not surprised though as your (limited) portfolio is outstanding and ready for primetime. The quality is there, so the work more or less sells itself it seems?

@Aaron: And why wouldn't your work sell? You waited for the best light for that boat shot (or maybe got lucky, I don't know) and it paid off. The other works are also at a level that one might reasonably expect sales. This thread is not about 'you never know what sells' but about having realistic expectations of what has a chance of selling. You didn't shoot that boat at one in the afternoon with horrible blown highlights for a reason.

@Brooks: 'Like I said, I'm as active as I can be and still don't sell well here, even though I do in the real world'. and you also said 'We could go on & on re the 'why' of what that takes...blah, blah, blah...and everyone is gong to have a different opinion.'

The real world is different from the virtual world and I think that selling in the real world forces artists to only display their best works. Once the need arises to invest in inventory and seriously consider return on investment it suddenly becomes much easier to be critical of one's work. Not so on the internet, where time seems to be only constraint in terms of building up a portfolio.

Not a critique, but I looked at your portfolio and noticed that you have lots of flower images. Flowers are one of the most over-saturated categories on FAA. I did a search which yielded more than 10,000 results. There are so many flower images on here alone that the search engine won't even display them all. Every artist I think has flowers in his or her portfolio. If I come across an easy flower shot I'll take it. Others have stated on here that they don't even bother with flowers anymore. I don't expect to sell my flower shots because tons of similar works exists - not to mention the works of people who specialize in flowers and are willing to get up at the crack of dawn to catch a flower in perfect bloom and perfect light using a specialized macro lens.Notice how so far I'm not giving an opinion but stating facts?

What it takes is hard hard work, patience, time, skills, the right tools for the right job and the ability to be brutally honest about your own work and its potential in the market place. Once you have all this sorted, luck becomes much less of a factor.

Photographer Lisette Model said of photography: 'Photography is the easiest art, which perhaps makes it the hardest'. Boy, was she right!

Hi Dean. First time 'meeting' you here on FAA. I've personally never asked for a critique of my work, either re what I choose to post here or in any other format or venue, nor would I, as I'm my own critic. And, though, I'm frequently called on by artists & photographers asking for my artistic advice & experience, I'd rather they become more confident & discerning on their own, not needing to rely on someone else's opinion or feedback. I'm all about empowering others!

Yes, flowers do seem to be quite popular, here & the world over! That's why it's SO important to make sure of the quality, offer interesting angles and so on. I do hope you took the time to read my bio and check out my art & other photography, not just my flowers? I also have a blog you might find interesting.

I will visit your gallery, as well, to read more about you & see what kind of work you think folks will want to buy.

Oops, hit the reply twice.

Amen, Brooks.

OK I've just read your bio and I'm not sure what I should be getting out of that. I do seem to have touched a nerve though, and am not quite sure what it is that rubbed you the wrong way.

When you said 'I sell in real life' I assumed you meant selling at art fairs and such. In that context, every single word of what I have said is true. When you have to pay for a booth and print materials, do you pack it with 300+ prints or do you make a selection of your best and most viable? The kind of selection you do not need to make here because once you pay the $30 you can have as many works up as you like?

I pointed out to you that you have a lot of flowers. Flowers are a hard sell because there are so many. That is not a critique, but a fact. Am I saying something untrue here? Or something insulting? Doesn't it make sense that something that has been done to death and is available pretty much anywhere in any portfolio is going to be harder to sell? I don't count on my flowers selling because there are so many of them and there are tons of flowers that are commercially more viable. Made by photographers who work far, far harder than I do to get them. At no point did I say anything about the quality of your specific flowers. Just that you have a lot of them.

Brooks, take out of this what you want. Maybe the key to more online sales for you is more marketing, better keywords and more google-friendly descriptions. Like I said in my OP: if you feel that your art is beyond criticism or honest self evaluation, that you are a misunderstood genius or that the FAA search engine is at the heart of all your problems, then fine. It's not up to me to tell you what to do or how to do it. Nor is it up to me to judge your work. Just bear in mind that the buying public does judge though.

The key to more sales for me as I see it is improving my skills and only worry about marketing when I actually have something that is worth marketing. And it is a path that I feel would be worthwhile for others here as well. If you don't agree that's fine with me.

Is this where I say amen?

Ill say it, Dean............Amen, brother..........All good!..............

Hey, thanks for the mention above, Dean! I tend a huge garden full of flowers in my backyard every year, so, yes, some of those captures get uploaded! Guess that's all some photographers actually have in their galleries, flowers, just like some members have mostly birds or architecture or cars and so on. I like to offer a variety of images, though, not just flowers. Doesn't have a thing to do with selling or not selling, though, as folks will buy what they are attracted to...and a lot seem to like FLOWERS!

Of course, quality is always high on my list...and my floral photography is a best seller, especially the roses. There is no 'key' to sales, really, though. I've always worked hard and continually hone my talent & eye, presenting fine art originals & prints.

When I mention 'good luck', it doesn't mean that that's ALL it takes. It just means that after all the hard work of creating, promoting, paying attention to details, joining in all that FAA offer us & beyond, doing what it takes and having the utmost patience...that a little bit of luck helps. Amen!

Nave never done an art fair, Dean! Like my bio says, I've been fortunate to show in galleries for over 30 years...and other exhibit venues.

OK so no hard feelings? My reference to your flowers was only to possibly explain why you don't sell well here. Not because they are bad, but because there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of them.

Luck is always a factor in art. So far with my sales personally I have felt that they were mostly dumb luck. I want skills to be a greater part of the sales equation. For some of the daily sellers here, luck is hardly a factor anymore. The less you need to depend on luck, the better I say.

Dean, I didn't say I don't sell at ALL [lol!], just not in the numbers I'd like! Plus, I'm always surprised at what people buy! No hard feelings for sure. Not what this is about. I am sufficiently secure in my talent, gallery of work & quality of. Funny thing, the other day I was actually thinking of thinning out my flowers! And, you're right, although it's great to have good luck & fortune on our side, it's nice not to need or depend on it.

That being said, it does play a part, as there are SO many reasons why something of someone's will sell that isn't so great & something fabulous of someone else's does not! Amen?

Buyers 'collect' for a host of reasons that only they can attest to, like I said earlier. Family & friends will buy most anything to support their 'artist'. I realize lots of members just shake their heads when taking a look at the 'recently sold'. I may only see one that make me say 'wow', if that.

What moves someone to buy your work, or anyone's work, is the question. In fact, here's an example. I have two fabulous artist friends on FAA. One does a LOT of marketing/promoting, has a following, plus an extensive gallery...and hardly sells a thing. The other never does any promotion, just posts a new work every now & then...and sells well. Go figure.

So, yes, it has something to do with bringing folks to your site and offering a variety of interesting, quality images...as well as getting your work seen in a BIGGER way right here on FAA. I know I, along with most of my friends/members, do everything we can to make that happen. But, per the example above, you never really know the reason behind why someone work that is worthy sells & not another's with the same.

Here's my two cents on the subject of "NOT GOOD ART" from both an artist and business owner perspective.

Is there technically poor art out there? Yes. Is that why people aren't selling art? Probably not.
From a business standpoint most people buy art based on subject or personal interest. They buy images based on type of car, a breed of dog, or specific location.
Most buyers are NOT looking at an image and critiquing it for the same reasons YOU do. They aren't looking to see if the contrast is perfect, it's correctly focused, or it follows the rule of 3rds. They search for something they are interested in and buy based on that.
I've seen a lot of images sell over and over again that I would consider to NOT be technically correct, but it's a subject that sells to a large group based on interest.
One of the hardest things for most creatives and artists to do is approach their ART or Photography as a business.
They look at their art from a technical standpoint and quality, what brush and stokes they used, what camera and lens they used, how the lighting came out, how perfectly the image is focused etc. Most buyers go out looking for a specific image based on a subject they like. Dog, Car, Location, etc.

If you had one technically incorrect image that featured a hard to find subject that people wanted, you would be more likely to see that then having a technically perfect image that 10,000 other artists also have.
Case in point, I took a photo of a rare Virgin America aircraft featuring the MACH DADDY slogan on the captains side of the plane. It was landing and I managed to snap a decent photograph of it. I sold that image within 24 hours of uploading it. WHY? Because it was so great? Because someone just stumbled upon it and said WOW this is so technically perfect I will buy it!!?? HAHA NO! They found something they were interested in and it was a very hard if not impossible photograph to find and they purchased it. They actually spent nearly $300 dollars for a very nice very large canvas print setup. Not because my image was so great and perfect, but because the subject was special to them and it was RARE.


Of course we all need to continue to improve and get better, but remember the bottom line is it's a business offering a product to a customer. I'm as guilty as the next creative for not giving enough attention to the BUSINESS end of our art. But that's what it is. I don't create art to make money, but if I'm going to sell it I need to approach it like a business and at least understand why people buy the images they do.

Another case in point, I just sold an Iphone case with an image I shot while driving down the freeway. While on the freeway I noticed a very scary looking Semi Truck behind me. It reminded me of the movie Duel by Steven Speilberg. I grabbed my camera off the seat and quickly snapped a picture of the truck in my mirror. Is it perfect? No. Is it simply stunning and amazing? No. But it's a rare image of a rare style of truck, and someone wanted it.


Always keep that in mind when creating images and art. Rare, Unique, Hard to Find, Special interest, etc sells good. If you are just one great image among 15,000 of a horse unless you have a very unique style or popular name in art, it's going to be a long time before you sell an image just for the fact customers have so many similar images to choose from.

I hope this helps. Don't get down on yourself and don't think you have to have a PERFECT piece in order to sell it. Subject, Subject, Subject!

I'm not getting down on myself, but being realistic Aaron. Thanks for the kind words though.

Look, your work and talent is at a level where you know when something is worth featuring in your gallery. I sometimes see portfolios here where it looks like someone just got a new camera for his birthday, spent ten minutes reading the manual and then started shooting and uploading every single image to FAA. The key to sales in these situations is not keywords, marketing or anything like that.

In this uber-competitive environment I'm still managing sales without doing any outside marketing. But I've been thinking about marketing and taking things to the next level. This forces me to take stock and ingest a dose of reality. Ultimately, this will hopefully result in a better body of work, more sales and more personal and artistic satisfaction. I've been depending on luck for far too long.

Luck might have been all that was needed five years ago. Not anymore.

Like you say, makes you wonder if every new camera comes with a promise - You Can Make Money With This Machine!


At least the crap makes the quality stuff look even better.

Hi Dean,

I think this is a great topic! I don't have time to read all the replies...my real job calls... but saw that you said "What it takes is hard hard work, patience, time, skills, the right tools for the right job and the ability to be brutally honest about your own work and its potential in the market place. Once you have all this sorted, luck becomes much less of a factor."

Personally I do art for the satisfaction it brings me...sure I want to be rich and famous because of my art...but I couldn't do it for five minutes if I didn't enjoy the doing. I might even do better with sales if I had stuck with more traditional mediums...but I enjoy what I have been doing. I live with that elephant looking over my shoulder telling me to delete and change my work and I love her because I can see improvement in what I do....and that improvement may lead to more sales. Perhaps by my retirement years I will have a small income ...who knows...if not I will continue to enjoy the doing.

Although I agree with what Aaron said...I don't think that is the norm for most of us. Sure a shot of some major happening would sell no matter how imperfect but for the most part I think most buyers can see quality work....I think an untrained eye still sees...just doesn't know the whys.

I am actually pretty shy and don't normally say much but this is something that stuck with me...I see a lot of portfolios that have some really great pieces buried amongst other, I will say sub par work....those portfolios become forgotten. That said the most memorable one I have ever seen had exactly two pieces in it. Black and white photographs, just two, so awesomely perfect I will never forget them.

Also, while I am rambling, I don't think looking at the what sold is a good indication...IMO I would be willing to bet Mom or Grandma has purchased a lot of art.

Ok I'm done and off to the real world...thanks for posting this Dean. I think/hope it will motivate others into greater sales!

Never noticed the French rainbow guy but the same thing happened with the Charlotte rainbow guy. Sold like hotcakes for a while and still does sell regularly.

When it was first up I think that was the only work he had here. He has broadened his portfolio now but the rest of the work is good as well....

Mr. Harte,

Great topic, excellent reading. While I would like to agree with you, I cannot. And the reason is simple; "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." As I see the daily announcements of items sold -- I have to question some people's taste or lack thereof (in my opinion which is not worth anything). I am reminded of another quote "one man's trash is another man's treasure."

The items I have sold first were projects I placed in as filler never expecting them to sell them. I was amazed and it made me realize that I do not have to be an accomplished artist the likes of Michelangelo or a photographer such as Ansel Adams to sell my art. I just have to reach the people with money. These people decide who becomes an accomplished artist and who does not. And it is their personal taste or lack thereof which will decide where their money goes. I still work on projects that I enjoy and if anything this experiment called Fine Art America is making me wonder more about business than the expression of art....

For all of you out there who have not sold anything, yet? Just be patient someone will come along who will appreciate all of your time and effort into a piece of art that was seemly made just for them.... just my two cents.

Zorro

@Edward. You are right. A few years back it was easier to get lucky. My first sale here at FAA a couple of years ago happened as follows. I saw on the recently sold page that some customer was bulk buying crab images. I had just shot some crabs so I quickly processed a photo and uploaded. The next day it was sold to the same client. That was in May 2011 and a lot has changed since then. Luck is becoming less and less of a factor to rely on for consistent sales.

@Val. Thanks for chiming in. Of course, many of us do art because it gives us pleasure. But when it comes to consistent sales we also need to be realistic. Not anything and everything will sell. You have a realistic view of things which will hopefully put you up on the big board in the near future.

@JC: I think it's the same guy. Charlotte sounds French so that's probably how I remembered it. He was not wasting time sitting at his computer uploading and/or marketing, but was where he needed to be. That single decision has yielded him much more than many of us have accomplished sitting at our computers for years.

@Zorro. Thanks for dropping by. Glad you enjoy the topic. Just as you cannot agree with me, I cannot agree with you. One man's thrash may indeed be another man's treasure, but everybody has a camera nowadays on their phones. With that they also have increased awareness of what it takes to make a great photo. Good enough doesn't cut it anymore. You say 'all your time and effort into a piece of art that was seemly made just for them'. And that's where the problem lies. If hardly any effort is put in, if no discernable skills are required then can we really call it art? And is there really a market for such work? Does it deserve a market? I don't think so. Hence my advice to maybe look at what it is an artist is trying to sell instead of endlessly uploading stuff to social media. Your advice to anyone who hasn't sold anything yet is very kind, but, in my opinion, counterproductive. If you want to sell, then put some time and effort into your piece instead of rushing off to post work online.

I see so much photography that is pixel perfect, The iso is set right, the image is clear and fine tuned but the subject /or theme is totally lack luster. To me what is just as important as good camera settings is good photo instincts,

Spot on, Judy.....Sadly, I gloss over the predictable photography, regardless of how technically accomplished.
I want to see experimentation, stretching. Show me something I haven't seen or considered...show me how your work morphs from one stage to the next....convince me you are engaged in more than adjusting your tripod and camera settings or worse yet, offering the same style over and over again......
I may ruffle some feathers, given that this is a POD site...but my perspective is an artistic one with a critical eye.

Yep Judy and Marlene I feel the same way. Fine art landscapes were a huge hit years ago when you had to do a lot of work to get your results, unseen until you developed everything. Now since everyone has a digital camera, those same images are done a thousand times a year and put on the net to sell everywhere. Galleries don't want em anymore, and buyers just want something different and unique. It doesn't have to be stunningly perfect or have anything to do with fine art.

Yes, its a different photography/art world out there now,..I have been looking at the new interchangeable lens cameras with the mirrorless technology,They can provide great picture quality but you have to futz around with endless settings and technological issues, I am really a "point and shoot"kind of girl. My favorite setting is Intelligent Auto,...and thus my focus is more on finding and capturing a great scene, rather than trying to figure out the right settings,..The right camera is paramount in achieving that goal!
Its really funny ,,,When I paint I want my paintings to look like photographs,,,when I photograph I want my photos to look like paintings,,,Go figure!
Sorry, off track again!

That's the worst self excuse I have ever heard for not wanting to learn how to use a camera. So you are basically saying that by using the right settings, and learning the technical issues of a camera takes away from finding and capturing a great scene? Ridiculous. You are severely limiting yourself with photography by relying on auto mode.

Dean,
You are correct. I tend to agree more with your recent comments... I do wonder about the market.

Zorro

Well it used to be if a women had dark roots and bleached out ends of her hair this was not acceptable and whoever did this was banned from her position. Now you will see chunks of bright red locks mixed in .......half black end with bleached roots.....yes it does take technical know how to do this but the general population is not going to see the technical flaws that an artist may see. They just want the general idea of a certain trend look. Sure the desired results need to be there for the general customer for a fair price. There are all levels of artists looking to produce trend work from the $5 results to the $100. My understanding is that fine art is generally considered a luxury item and is high end quality. But with so many artists like FAA has,I see it may morph into levels of high end from decent to superior. I believe a customer will buy what they like and can afford whether it be wall art or a sofa

Landscapes sell very well here so the reason (some) galleries don't want them anymore is probably more to do with them catering to the tastes of those who still buy art at galleries rather than online. If they start selling works that people can buy online for $20 then they are pretty much shooting themselves in the foot. Mediocre (or bad) and unimaginative landscapes however don't sell as well as they used to, simply because there are now more accomplished works made with more skills to choose from. If you've never heard of Peter Lik, check out www.lik.com. In addition to an online shop, he has fifteen real-life galleries in different countries. Part of his success may be hype or name recognition, but at the heart of it is the fact that he just works his butt off getting his shots and won't settle for second best. He doesn't just show up, point his consumer-grade camera at something to then upload it to FAA and move onto the next thing.

As for wanting to see more experimental/off-beat work: I got into photography because I am just endlessly fascinated by the world around me as is. I'm having a hard enough time capturing that so for the most part experimental photography just isn't for me. In that respect, it's a bit like painting: some painters make realistic works, others abstracts. Producing a great photograph within the parameters of 'conventional photography', that's where I see my challenge. Regardless of the form in which someone decides to express himself/herself, both for painting, photography and other art forms, you need to know the rules before you can break them though. And that in itself already constitutes a tremendous challenge.

As for the camera on auto-setting: cameras can do a fantastic job in auto mode. My Nikon has a mode called P which is more or less auto mode expect that you can quickly switch between fixed combinations of aperture/shutter speed. This is the mode I set my camera in when I am walking around and don't know what to except next, and it works nicely. I can quickly blur or freeze a subject without having to mess around with settings first.

However, knowing your equipment and being able to effectively control the image captured by your sensor, knowing beforehand how the photo will turn out and how iso, aperture and shutter speed interact with and influence each other, can make the difference between a meh-photo and a fantastic photo. Cameras are great nowadays, but the man or woman operating it is still more important than the equipment.

@Zorro. Yes the market is a constant source of amazement to me too. But I think the biggest mistake we make as artists is underestimating our public and just how discerning they can be. As artists we may attach all sorts of emotional elements or excuses to our art, but in the end the consumer (yes, people who buy art are consumers) can only spend his or her money once. They don't care how we felt or what we set out to achieve if it doesn't become apparent in the work. They know how the internet works and the competition is always just one or two clicks away. Whenever I buy something major, I tend to read both professional reviews and amazon user reviews and also how similar products perform or are rated in comparison. Why would this be any different with art?

@L. Cecka: We may obsess too much over certain technical flaws that are not relevant in real life. In photography some people are so-called pixel peepers: people who fret over, let's say, certain processing artifacts that would only become apparent when viewing a billboard sized work from one foot away. But that is not what this thread is about though. This thread is about looking realistically at your work and that of your competition and then asking yourself which work a consumer would more likely spend the cash on. Works made with skill and craftsmanship have a greater chance of selling than works that this very same consumer feels he or she could do himself.

Of course the artist behind it all matters. There are tons of doctors, tons of lawyers, tons of coffee shops etc, out there with a range of offerings and the customer will get down to the specifics in there choices as they will with there art. I have heard of Peter Lik and he has carved out a niche' for himself for sure and I am sure if one emulates some of his ideals they too may attract a similar customer. And there are others out there who try to do that. Perhaps at some point he will start a Peter Lik Academy. But at some point people will get tired of his style and they will turn to something fresh. Similar to music some rise to the top for a few hits and some like Elton John just keep puttin it out. The magic formula is not the same for every singer. You watch the Voice and they gradually come into there own style and yes there is always a larger market for some of them then others. And some drop away not making it to the top but they may still do something in music and do okay.

Yes Dean I understand honesty is key. I think that humans have a limit when it comes to critical thinking. The capacity of seeing what we create as the consumer would can go only so far. I really think you at some point have to get it out there and test it either with a critique from your peers or strangers. Critiques from peers may not be totally impartial.

There are tons of doctors, tons of lawyers, tons of coffee shops etc, out there with a range of offerings --- yes, but none of them just do whatever and see what sticks like many of us do here. If I practiced medicine at the level that I practice photography I would be in jail for malpractice. You can only call yourself a doctor or lawyer if you meet certain basic requirements. Not so for artists. Any coffee shop that doesn't have a sound business plan and sells nescafe or the stuff that people can just buy from the supermarket and make at home will fail.

But at some point people will get tired of his style and they will turn to something fresh. --> No, I don't think so. I find Lik's work wonderfully timeless in fact and I think it will stand the test of time. It does not cater to the whims of whatever is in fashion right now, and just as it is a testimony of craftsmanship, skill and practice today it will be so in the future. Famous photographers like Adams and Cartier-Bresson continue to inspire as well.

As for the Voice: I don't really watch that program but I'm guessing its part audience auditions which revolve around schadenfreude. Once that is out of the way, you end up with a core group of people who have passed whatever standards have been set to advance. Out of that group, who arguably have some talent, some might continue to be able to work in the industry. Most will probably go back to their accounting job or whatever it is they have to do to make a decent living though.

As for critiques from peers: that is probably more useful for more advanced artists. Asking for a critique of a mid-afternoon shot of the Brooklyn Bridge that in no way whatsoever stands out from the thousands of works of the same subject out there that were made with thought, skills, determination and patience is kind of pointless. With a healthy dose of realism and self-honesty, it is quite easy to figure out why something might not be selling. Self-criticism is the name of the game.
.

My point with Peter Lik was meant as an example not specific to him. Like Elton John some artists go on an on as you said they are timeless. Yes....I agree self honesty and a healthy dose of realism will take you to a point at which then u would become advanced(as u say) and will need someone perhaps a mentor peer to critique you in order to see where you can improve. I am not in an argument with you Dean to be more right. I am just offering you my perspective from my experiences etc.....Of course doctors, lawyers have to pass the bar or the boards. And there are some artists here that have come away with degrees. I have my degree and I did have to pass my boards. I am retired from that degree now but I find that much of it crosses over. There is alot of self development here and some of producing quality takes time and money

Kevin I recently got a compact dslr. Spent the day yesterday shooting with it, There is no doubt that learning the settings and taking advantage of the cameras capabilities is the way to go,,,Just a little painful in the process, I am shooting raw,,,,but find that when I process the image I am having to adjust a lot of settings, Correct me if I am wrong but ideally, if you are photographing a scene in raw with the right settings it should not be necessary to adjust the settings afterward,...unless you just want a more dramatic result....Anyway the point I was trying to make initially is that pixel isn't everything ...There are endless photos from accomplished photographers that have all the right settings, the right equipment, the right technical knowhow but lack the artistic flair.

"Correct me if I am wrong but ideally, if you are photographing a scene in raw with the right settings it should not be necessary to adjust the settings afterward,...unless you just want a more dramatic result...."

Actually, it's the other way around.

If you shoot JPG, the camera's software will boost the colors, contrast, and sharpness.
The RAW images are always duller, but they are "uncooked" and can be improved substantially through subsequent processing.

This is an interesting discussion.

No one out there has really said this at all, but the western world is very rich. There are buyers out there
for anything.

I see the low priced best sellers here as the stuff the kids want for the dorm room. Those kids
have not refined their tastes yet.

What is important is the growth of this industry, online art sales, is 20% per year currently. Brick
and mortar galleries are closing. Our aging populations are moving online to buy art.

Soul searching can we well over done. It wont change much of anything at all.

If you have bad art, you have bad art. Who am I to straighten you out?

If you have great art congrats. Carry on and enjoy the market coming to you.

Happy holidays,

Dave

@ Dean, My Canon does not work that well in auto mode at all. In fact, the first week I had it, I put it in "P" set the iso to 200 and set it to underexpose by about 2/3 stop. In auto mode, it just blows everything out, and waaaay overexposes. The guy new to photography might think that's normal.

Someone who's just starting out gets the new DSLR's and there's no way they are going to know how to fuss with the manual settings. I learned on a completely manual SLR film camera and had to choose all the settings myself. I'm not saying that makes my art any better - I still have to find the subject and figure out how to shoot it, but I am saying that I have a little edge over the guy just starting straight out with a complex camera.

I think good art comes more from the soul and knowledge of the equipment you are using and lots of study and trial and error. I thought my art 10 years ago was great until I got on another site and I got a rude awakening because I was willing to take off the blinders and compare myself to other photographers. That left me thinking "How did they do THAT?" and trying to improve. I'm still improving, I think, and that's all we can ask for.

I do not do art for the money. Sales are just a bonus!

Mary said "I think good art comes more from the soul and knowledge of the equipment you are using and lots of study and trial and error. I thought my art 10 years ago was great until I got on another site and I got a rude awakening because I was willing to take off the blinders and compare myself to other photographers. That left me thinking "How did they do THAT?" and trying to improve. I'm still improving, I think, and that's all we can ask for."

I was just thinking about this discussion and when I came back to respond, Mary said pretty much what I was thinking.

I remember the first time I saw Galen Rowell's work. I was blown away. I wanted to know how he did that. It would be another twenty years before I got a "real" camera and started attempting to learn how to use it. Studying what sells is fine if that's what you want. For me, I want to do it well. (photography) Marlene sees abstracts wherever she goes. She's obviously passionate about the forms/colors/compositions and how they work together. I see possibilities wherever I go. I ask myself how would this scene look as a long exposure, fast shutter speed, underexposed, overexposed, zoomed in, shot wide, shallow depth of field, etc. I never saw these possibilities before I learned how to work the camera. If you're happy with the results you get in auto mode, then that's how you will continue shooting. I was never happy with those results. The urge to learn more and be able to do better work is irresistible. I couldn't stop even if I wanted to.

The natural world is where I find solace, so it follows that I would want to shoot nature. Even when I shoot man-made objects like bridges and buildings, I find myself framing them in such a way as to provide the context of nature around them. I get very excited when I see a wild animal, even if I don't have the opportunity to photograph it. Maybe my images are boring or done to death subjects to some, but to me they are the ultimate challenge. I want to do them better than everyone else. A lofty goal, I realize, and probably one I will never reach. But that's what keeps me going, and learning, and trying.

So, this is my long-winded way of saying the same thing Mary said above. If you are passionate about what you do, it's almost inevitable you will eventually end up doing it well.

Great topic, after having one sale when I joined FAA a few months ago, I've had the question from friends/acquaintances/family asking," have you made any more sales yet?" Of course pending on my position on answering due to randomness of the question, I would say no followed by a silly answer like, "well maybe you're doing something wrong." My answer to this is always this," Of course I am, thats why I keep doing and learning about my craft, im not speacial in my relm of art compared to the hundreds of thousands of artist out there."

Thinking that all of my images are going to "sell like hot cakes" is extremely arrogant and arrogance (atleast for me) deters from helping in any creative progress and process in my art.

Cheers to the OP.

Les, thanks for clarifying, I just somehow felt that if one was able to have the perfect exposure/ iso, f stop etc etc when they took the picture in raw the camera would capture it accordingly, ,,,
and there would be no need to post edit as a result.. Good to know because I have to do considerable amount of post editing, which I actually enjoy, Also, if anyone knows this, Right now the only photo editing I am doing is still with the Apple IPHOTO,, I am using the Yosemite OS and have installed all updates which includes raw editing, My camera was among the ones listed that was incorporated into that update, Is that program sufficient or is there a deficiency in the IPHOTO software for raw processing.

Mary said "I think good art comes more from the soul and knowledge of the equipment you are using and lots of study and trial and error. I thought my art 10 years ago was great until I got on another site and I got a rude awakening because I was willing to take off the blinders and compare myself to other photographers. That left me thinking "How did they do THAT?" and trying to improve. I'm still improving, I think, and that's all we can ask for."

Excellent comment Mary, and very much in line with the spirit of this thread.

@Judy: did your camera came with any bundled software by any chance? I am not sure how well Apple IPHOTO works since I never used. When I first started photography, I used a combination of free programs. It did work, but I find programs like Lightroom and Capture One work better and will save you a lot of time and hassle once you understand them. If your camera came with Canon photo editing software and you haven't tried it, give that a shot. You can also trial many if not all photo editing software programs so see how you like them. I think there is a popular program among Apple users called Iridient. There is also a free program called GIMP which is supposedly very good but has a steeper learning curve then the commercial alternatives.

@David. 'there are buyers out there for anything'. I think there are buyers out there for any subject matter, but not for every piece of work. Simply surfing the web, people are constantly exposed to photography. Every blog uses photos. This raises the bar as to what is good enough to hang on a wall I think. Good enough will increasingly not cut it anymore, especially given the fact that everyone now has a camera on their phones.

@Vjay. I agree. People want to talk the talk but fail to walk the walk. Producing anything worthwhile takes a lot of hard work. Then again, nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

@David and Loree: Yes enjoyment in what we do is very important. Not only would I continue doing what I do without sales but in fact I am doing that right now. Still, the validation you get through a sale (both financially and mentally) is very nice :)


If you are going to try and sell snow to eskimos, the least you could do is make sure the snow isn't yellow.

I have about 3 or 4 people who only comment on my work if they really like it. Those are the comments I trust and because of their encouragement, I keep on creating. I must be doing something right as I have had one rich friend and one triple millionaire relative try and get me to take my files to Walmart to have cheap pictures printed for them. I just had to look up the spelling for "millionaire" I am so far from that that it isn't funny. Lol. They didn't get their cheap pictures by the way.

Now I have started creating images that I love doing and not so much images I think might sell. It is much more fun.

Image the power of knowing how to use your camera AND the ability to see a worthy scene! (plus post process)

It might just be like a violin virtuoso who can play (knows how to use their instrument) and can compose (knows how to express their personal vision)!

How do we judge ourselves? Art is in the eye of the beholder. One person's crap is another person's treasure. Who is going to be the ultimate judge? I personally get frustrated when I see what I consider "Crap" selling while my work just sits around gathering dust. But maybe mine is the crap. At least I pay attention to detail. There certainly are some basics that many photographers are not following such as focus, crooked horizons, sensor dust, composition, etc...

Take Zazzle.com for instance, I have a friend who sells tons of stuff there. I mean six figures a year tons of stuff. But it's all fluff like graphics of ladybugs, valentine hearts, bows and ribbons, and other stuff like that that she gets off the internet and puts on all the Zazzle products. She knows it's crap but it sells big time. All my products that I created myself with my own images as usual pretty much just sit there with a postcard being sold now and then. Bottom line is the masses want crap and I am going to fail because I refuse to churn it out.

@Ted. I understand your frustration. Many of us work hard to then see stuff like patents (seems the new it thing at the moment), public domain or fluff sell. But there is nothing stopping you from jumping on that very same bandwagon though. There are plenty of examples of good (in: accomplished, different, made with skill and patience) works not being sold here, just as there are plenty of succesful artists that make plenty of sales without 'churning out crap to satisfy the masses'. If you feel that you are at the top of your game, are bringing something unique to the table, then it's time to think about marketing. FAA will not sell work for you, it's up to you to find buyers. Have you been doing that? If yes, then maybe your marketing strategy is faulty. Just remember that technically sound may not be enough anymore. And a postcard now and then may not bring in a lot of money, but it's more than some are getting here. At least you know that you are being found on FAA and that people are willing to part with their cash to buy your work.

@Ted;
Remember also who you're marketing to.
You (we) are trying to sell our visions (art) to the masses and not to other artists.(for the most part)
The people who buy the "fluff" are (in my opinion) simple minded individuals who just want "pretty pictures" to decorate their homes. "Small things amuse small minds"

Artists (no matter the medium) are generally more in tune with the world spiritually and intellectually and produce art that reflects this "understanding". This includes musicians and actors.
Yes I know this sounds pompous or arrogant.

Consider how popular that painting - "dogs playing poker" was a hundred years ago. (not exactly "high-art") ...or Warhol's soup poster was. Was or is that "high-art"? the brilliance of
Warhol was that he knew his market and delivered what they wanted.
Those who you/we may consider brilliant today is not what the masses see. They just want cheap - "bright and shinny objects". Just look at the crap we see on tv today. All those
reality shows and movies that feature CGI orange fireballs every three minutes. The society today is dumber and dumber. And combine that with more people today with purchase power.
Consider all those stolen I.D.s and credit cards and where that info is going. To the third world and what do they want to buy with their new found credit or coins. Lowbrow or kitsch.

Harsh! I know but, this is the world today. The pyramid is growing but the base is disproportionately larger with each generation.
Most of the world's population doesn't appreciate or even like highbrow art. When they consider buying art, their main concern is - will it fit or look good with the furniture or drapes.

Ken, I think pretty much any subject will sell on FAA and the art available ranges from dogs playing poker (which I love by the way) to contemplative reflections on existential angst. But that is not what this topic is about. This topic is about not every work being sellable. Regardless of your target audience, buyers will compare and choose the work that is more accomplished in most cases; the work made by the artist who has gone that extra mile to catch that special light or has waited until that buck looks straight into the camera.

Referring to buyers of certain kinds of works as simple-minded individuals is wrong. People like what they like, and they tend to like better-made works better than photographs they could take themselves or a dime-a-dozen flower paintings. Attributing a lack of sales to your customers having bad taste is an excuse.

I see works of art on FAA that I cringe at - but other members love. Someone posted a video of a young girl singing; members loved her, thought she was cute. I did not and her voice hurt me ears. My fault, nobody else's ... How do we know if our art is good or not? - Because somebody liked it ? Or did not? We can't judge ... No one can. What we consider 'good' or 'bad' may not be the case for others; and Thank God for that! In my opinion, there is no good or bad, only personal preference. Which is just as well, or we'd all be left on the shelf.

Jean Lucienne Rayner

Further to the point I made earlier in the thread, I went downtown to the local art association store where I live (small town) and asked how I get my art for sale in their shop. Basically, I pay 25 bucks a year to be a member and just bring in the work and price it.

In the meantime, while I was in there, my gaze fell on a really stunning photo of the old Packard plant in Detroit, with all its crumbled walls and graffiti and debris and it was WONDERFUL and only 35 bucks (unframed) so I bought it on the spot. I was telling the woman this is exactly the kind of work that I'm drawn to and she said "Yeah, we just don't sell those".

So I guess I'll be taking some of my nice window shots down there....windows the locals are familiar with......not my grungy concrete wall images.

@Mary. I love it when art finds me. I came across all my art by coincidence, without having any intention of buying. Interesting point that the lady said 'we just don't sell those' but you bought it. What was it about that work that made you buy it?

@Jean: this is not about good or bad, but about being realistic in relation to your work and acknowledging that there is just so much great work out there that you might need to step up your game as an artist. I know that girl clip: it might not be to everyone's liking, but she sure could sing. Compare that to a youtube clip of some guy singing off-key in the shower.

Cull images? I don't think so. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some of the material that I post I wouldn't look at twice, but they end up being other people's favs. I can't predict what people will like, less what people will buy. Often I just get an urge to create something 'different' - for variety - as an experiment - just to see how it will fly. Sometimes I create an image at the instigation of a contest - just to push myself to do something different. Sure, I hope my work sells, but I'm no longer expecting it.

By the way Dean, your work is pretty cool!

I thought that luck plays a role in everything we do, especially sales. It is a factor in our success; personal or business.I do not expect, judge, or compare my work with other artists. Each person has a unique style in creating art from lines to shapes and variables, and with photography. Any creation or photograph from any artist, beginner or not, mediocre or excellent; is a work that was done with passion and talent. Thank you for posting Dean.

well I know now the answer to that question.

Dean, it would be great if what you say is true, but sadly to say it just isn't.
Here is what you write; That instead of worrying about marketing you should be worrying about the quality of your work?

(Lets break this up in two easy steps)

Will your art be seen if you market it the right way. (Yes)
Will your art be seen if its awesome quality with no marketing. (No)

Its very sad to say that its not about quality when selling online, its all about your marketing.
If you can really market, and get your work in front of buyers all day and night, that's what its all about. That is another reason new artists, and bad post on the net all the time.
Its proven time and time again that mediocre and bad art does sell.

Younger people that grew up with computers and social media already have a huge advantage to older and better artists before the game even starts. its just a fact that many of us need to learn a new profession in order to sell our work online, called marketing the net. Is it hard work? Damn right it is, and some of us suck at it like I do, but some learn it and then their quality work brings it up another notch.
Do we give up? NO, we still sell in other ways that we always have. We sit back, try again later, or say screw it.

Does it mean you must be a better artist because you sell more online, No, it means you know how to market online; that's it

its about both things. sadly you would have to really, really push a bad snap shot really hard to get it to sell. where as good art almost sells itself. one would have to define what bad art is. as long as the image looks interesting it can sell. however if it's aunt edna's feet, or cousin tommy in his boat and the horizon is crooked and his bald head is super shiny, or its a random vacation shot, not in focus etc - it ain't selling unless someone likes other people's weird photos.


i don't think there is an advantage, i think that's only an excuse. i know about computers, i learned about social media only a few years ago. it's not that old, it's quite new in fact. and the people growing up with it, they are using it to talk to friends, and not strangers, and not selling. so i don't think there is an advantage there. being used to computers in general - that i can agree with. in order to edit you need to know how to use a complex program, but before that you need to know how to use the computer in the first place.

good work will sell itself. but the work being good isn't the important part. anyone can take a sharp picture, others can compose it well. but not everyone can make work that will work well in a home. it can be a fantastic shot of lightning strikes, but may never sell because it doesn't fit a theme in a house. the part is knowing what people want, and presenting it to them in a way they want it. and of course having selection is a big deal. if you only have 5 things - you probably won't sell much.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

So Mike your saying great images sell themselves. Hmm. why then every time a new artists come in here and asks that question, you all tell them that they need to work at marketing and don't expect just because you post work here, people will flock in to buy it.


Its all about the marketing and nothing else

If it was all about luck then some people seem to have consistent luck.

Young people have the disadvantage of short attention spans and friends who expect everything to be free or sold for less than a $1. The only thing they have to decorate is their computer, dorm room and cell phone. Older people have the advantage of patience, maturity and friends who have money to spend decorating their homes.

Do young people only sell to young people on FAA, is that a new collection?

Its all about marketing, luck could have a part as well

When you are talking about social networking as marketing then yes.

Kevin with only five images you going have a long while to go before you should be thinking about marketing. Sending people to view five images would be a waste of marketing effort. The chances of the potential buyer finding something they want to buy is slim.

Yes, everything to do with marketing, social media too
Your right Edward, I don't bring people here as you can see. I don't market anything here. Its a link and I post an image to use every once in a while.
I mostly bring people to my website to sell and a few other places.

KevinOConnellFineArt.com

The power of social networking is when other people share your work. You can market a boring image until the cows come home and it will get nowhere. Something unique, interesting and compelling will be organically spread.

That is very right, weather is a great image or any image, you still want to market it or noone will see it

KevinOConnellFineArt.com

Dean, thanks for your input, I have been on the phone with sony regarding the Capture One,,,I watched the video...but after all said and done turns out my camera is not yet supported. I am going to check out the Iridient now.. and some of your other suggestions Thanks again!!

Dean, thanks for your input,
. I am going to check out the artnet.com now.. and some of your other suggestions
Thanks again!

I have been busy with other, non-photography related stuff but have decided to indeed cull some of my work and stick to the 500-photo max portfolio as suggested by Juergen. I deleted about 10% of my photos already and everytime I add a new work I will delete an older work until I feel I have reached a point where my work resembles an actual portfolio. That should keep me busy for a very long time to come.

�Photography is the easiest art, which perhaps makes it the hardest.� - Lisette Model

So what's the ide behind the 500 photo max deal?

TL Mair
tlmair.com

I hope it will push me to produce better work and over time weed out the generic/uninteresting stuff. My portfolio simply has too much fluff in it at this time. I would like to have a body of work at some point that is worth putting some marketing efforts into. Every time I add a new work, something else will have to go.

if you upload your very best each time, it will all be good. and sometimes the older stuff is what sells best because it's been around the longest. i've sold many pieces that were many years old. as long as its printable, and people can find it, there is a strength in numbers. only if its really bad, i will erase it. problem with erasing is, there might be a guy who was saving up the entire year to buy it, and now its gone.


---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

Certainly don't post a bunch of family vacation photos just to bump up the quantity. If you are just starting out and are rapidly improving, its probably best to limit yourself to the 25 free ones until you can produce consistent quality.

and that goes double for anyone that paints. if your a painter, then post that even if it's 4 things. if your not a photographer, don't fluff it up with random junk from your house. it won't help you sell any. if you happen to be double threat, and your photos are really good, then go ahead and put them both up. usually it's just a single threat...

---Mike Savad
MikeSavad.com

I think what's better work and wats saleable work on FAA are two different things, when I sign in and it takes me to the what has sold page more times than not it leaves me scratching my head, sometimes I wonder if it's me and I just don't recognize good work or if people buy bad work, I only know they don't buy my work, so I don't have an answer.

TL Mair
tlmair.com

I agree TL, it's hard to predict what people will like. I have paintings that get very positive comments that leave me scratching my head because I think they are my weakest. A guy at work was looking through my portfolio the other day and said "I really like this one!" in my opinion it's possibly the worst painting in my portfolio but people like it, I have no idea why so I leave it there.

Not everything I create is "exceptional" and I do a bit of marketing - but - I've been told, quite succinctly, that my prices are too high.

If enough people pay it, the price isn't too high.

When people say the price is "too high", what they really mean to say is, "I like it but I won't shell out any money for art." Lower it and you'll still get "price is too high".

When gallery after gallery refuses to show your art...its time to rethink everything.

Bump

I asked Abbie to reopen this thread as a potential source of information for answering the question why certain work is not selling. Over the last year I have continued my efforts to keep my portfolio around the 500 mark and delete lesser work. Producing good work is hard - extremely hard even - but I am enjoying the process and still make the occasional sale.

I think the idea that one needs/wants to improve in artistic skills is a standard. Most people think their latest work is the best. After some time this might look different. In general I think anyone who is an ambitious artist has this question permanently in mind no matter whether you push a button on a camera or move some brushes. The thought "my art is not good enough" can be destructive when it ends up in self-defeat. Therefore I would rather prefer to say that there is always room to grow as artist. Otherwise it would be fairly boring too.

As said before here, what sells might be something different from what I think is great work. Selling artists are working in the area where both spheres overlap. To get into that place can be a long journey, some others seem to be born there.

I have to create. I love to see people enjoy my work. Ignored or loved, I have to create.

Creating, showing, sharing - is one thing. Being ready to sell is something else altogether.

For many, the ease of being able to open an account and start "offering" their work for sale, seems to be interpreted as a green light that says they are ready to sell.

The question we should all ask ourselves - Is this a good work of art? Would "I" pay, or anyone else pay, to have have this on the wall of my home or at work? Why?

in the past, there was no place to sell. there were places to display. and you often got critiqued by members and always looked for ways to improve. selling came much later, by the time it was ready to sell, people asked if it was for sale or not. the images has an IT factor. it takes years to get to this point.


today though, many have it in their head that they are doing something very unique because they OWN a camera, as if the rest of the world did not. many are under the impression that all you have to do is post it, and buyers, not knowing anything about art, or being savvy in photography, would not know the difference, and then buy from you. this coincided by friends telling you that you should sell. and combined with their own ideas of selling their art and buying a boat, because selling art is easy after all.... and then later the most shocked why its not selling at all.

people watch american idle year after year. they hear all the bad singers scream out their songs. they can't hear their own external voice because the internal one replaces it. people watch the show and say - i can do better than that, and the process repeats. and that's the same logic that goes on here. people see their own images as something wonderful because they took it. they compare with other people by subject - not by quality, and think its the same. and its not.


i remember a while back on a critique site, there on the front page was this pretty beach, flawless, nice sky, smooth sand, stock shot. in comes a guy saying how his shot of a beach didn't get to the front page (it goes up with the amount of points or thumbs it had), his had negative numbers, and he asked why. after all they are both beach scenes.... his image had a bland blank sky, it was crooked, it had garbage on the beach along with the can. there were signs of humans, it was a boring midday shot of a messy beach. but he didn't see that because he only saw it was a beach scene and the rest he may have remembered being there.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Also, certain topics are just plain oversaturated...even if you are a competent flower/dog/sunset/baby/boat/etc photographer/painter....there are tens of thousands of other photographers/painters just as talented/competent as you also doing flowers/sunsets/dogs/boats,etc.. So yes your work can be quite good but you are just one many thousands of artists who do such good work.

IN fact when your pals tell you that you are a good artist, you may actually be a good artist....as are tens of thousands of other talented artists...churning out images of babies, dogs, sunsets, flowers, etc.

I'm sure glad I'm not in the photography business other than for hobby, seems like way to much competition. If everyone on my block started to make sculptures I'm not sure what I would do, isn't the whole point of art to have something unique? I see so many people taking pretty much the same pictures, that's got to be a bummer. I was at the home depot yesterday buying material to sculpt a 25 foot horse, pvc pipe, fittings,cement,screws,and paint and someone who works there that I don't know came up to me to ask what I was going to be doing with all that because he said it wasn't plumbing. I said I'm going to make a sculpture and he said he figured that and if I would please bring him photos so he could see it on my next visit. Photography has got to be one of the hardest sales to make. With odds like that blaming the quality of the work for no sales is like throwing salt on a wound. That's not to say that in some cases you are probably right Dean.

Here is the real elephant in the room.


How Many Images on the Internet? from Bob Davies on Vimeo.

Quality of the work is the price of admission. The only difference now is there is no third party screening your work. Another responsibility the artist has to take on is self-editing.

I know the difference between my bloated portfolio here and the one that is hand selected by professionals on the boutique stock agency I submit to. If I wanted to send someone to place where they could see my best work, I'd send them to that portfolio. A portfolio that is evaluated for quality and market demands.

.

Boring is not worth buying.

For the group I administer, these are the basic guidelines:

Something you would be proud to exhibit in a Gallery. Don't worry whether your work will be better or worse than the next person, just submit pieces you are proud to share. Submit quality, finished work.

What I find is the majority of images that are submitted are of good quality, and many of those are worthy of a "feature", however there are also a handful of images that really should not be submitted. Part of the problem may lie in a lack of patience by the artist / photographer to take the time to create something that contains good composition, interesting subject matter, or makes a statement. I feel as though the rush to complete a piece and feel like you have to get it on FAA as quickly as possible tends to lead to lower quality work. Sometimes, it is simply a matter of the artist working to improve their skills. In this instance, I think it can provide growth to keep images on your personal FAA site and compare to see your improvement.

Challenging yourself to keep improving and taking the time with each piece to evaluate your own work as subjectively as possible I think will produce the best results. Looking at and learning from the work of other artists and artistic photographers can help you improve your own skills. I use the contests to find other artists, whose work I find inspirational. "Winning" the contest is not important, compared with being able to follow someone that makes you want to work to improve your own art. Don't be hesitant or afraid to go for it!
Cheers.

Not good enough for what?

sounds a bit like sunday school - ashes on our heads blabla

Maybe not. But what I don't understand is why my images sell through stock agencies and Zazzle but not here anymore. I did and still do a lot of promoting for this site without much luck. I used to make a few sales but something happened to stop them and I am not alone. Other photographers I know here have said the same thing happened to them. I am not even making my $30 a year fee anymore but at least it's a cheap hosting site. And that is all I view FAA as these days.

Mario Carta pointed out above what the most likely cause is. And something we all know. The photo business is imploding under the weight of too many images on the market. So hey, maybe a little beer money but don't quit your day job!

Glad you re-opened this thread. There is lots of good advice here - and yes, the hardest thing is critical self evaluation. I too need to go back and clean up my portfolio.
Thank you for this Dean and everyone:)

I agree that the market is super saturated with photography especially! There are just too many outstanding photos of sunsets, beaches, cars, boats, animals, buildings, people, etc. In this day and age, it just takes more than that. Many believe that if they just have a great camera and a good eye that they can sell great photos. They may produce great photos indeed, but the competition for those great but common photos is too fierce! Photographers can be very creative.....I've seen photographers who document the face of cancer in a unique what that no one else has done before. One poured amber honey over his subjects to create something I had never seen done. How bout the photographer who used enlarged hand puppets on the wall that interacted with his subjects in a unique way? Some place ordinary things in unusual scenes....Sunsets and puppies might always sell, but only for the very few who claw their way to the top. For the rest it will take a huge "LOOK AT ME!!!" with something totally unique. That's just my two cents on photography.

I have a photographer pal who does show some of her work in a gallery....and loses money by doing so....
I know why I don't make money from my images as I simply do not market them except here and Facebook, and placing them here and on Facebook is not marketing them but just dumping them off to another external storage system. Of course, one of the best external storage systems is Flickr which is free and accepts some 250,000 of your photographs before it asks for a small amount of money for extra storage.

That's why I'm constantly trying to improve my work.

Probably better to work 10 hours per week at a minimum wage job. You will make more than 80% of the artists do on FAA. Then use whatever free time you have left to work on your art. Enjoy the creative process. Learn and grow.

Dave Gordon

http://dgportfolio.net

"You will make more than 80% of the artists do on FAA"

Probably more like 99%+

"Probably more like 99%+" - yep - most likely lol

Dean So true.......cant argue with anything you've said....in the end its on US to make it happen for ourselves. I actually had a moment like this when I first came to the site and realized I needed to improve. Still working on continuing to get better and I will my entire lifetime...however it was the the cold shower I needed to wake up and smell the roses.

its a humbling experience when you realize how many people there are that are so talented and you have to somehow stand out and be original amongst them in order to be SEEN and make money. Realizing and knowing it was actually the best thing that ever happened to me as an artist and for my art.....

if you can add 2 and 2 correctly does this make you a mathematician - well, same goes for taking pics or adding paint on a canvas.

Here's the other elephant in the room, "Maybe you just aren't ambitious enough."

While the quality of my art isn't top rate it's not bad either, maybe even better then mediocre. However I've come to the conclusion that my problem really is one of ambition, primarily the ambition to market effectively, but also the ambition to create enough quality work. I'm not interested in spending 20-30 hours/week working on marketing/business and then another 20-30 hours/week busting my hump trying to create enough good artwork that I have some chance of being found, that's an awful lot of stress, I don't do well with stress. The competition is ambitious, and prodigious, you have to be as well in order to have any chance of any level of success, it's a high price to pay, a price higher than most people will pay for anything. I came to the conclusion I'm not willing to pay that price so I'm just going back to enjoying art as a hobby. I still market but just a few minutes here and there, mainly just posting to social media but I'm not really working it. I usually get an hour or two at the end of the day to work on art, but if not it's no big deal. Just keeping it casual so to speak.

You have to ask yourself, "How bad do I want it?" because you have to want it pretty darned bad to have success with it.

And such a big Elephant it is....

What works in one demographic doesn't work in another.

The on-line sales is a tough nut to crack. The art that sells locally, generally doesn't appeal to the masses, not all of it, anyway.

All we can do is try...test out niches and find what works, then create, improve, and enjoy!

Eat, pray, love :-)))

Cheers, Barbara

And for the vast majority of "creatives" (including myself), you can never say "I've made it!" It is a constant battle.

The art business is one of the most dynamic careers you can choose. The only thing guaranteed is CHANGE and it is rarely good.

Websites that once garnered a nice income for you might change in a way that no longer leads to sales. Some great websites fold entirely. Social media sites make changes and suddenly what used to get you a lot of traffic dries up. Design trends change and your style may longer be popular. Google makes changes in search and your images stop showing up. You paint, and your once consistent high quality manufacturer of canvas switches to cheaper low quality canvas with the same label and a higher price. The brand of paint that you've used for 5 years for a very specific style has a change in consistency rendering that style impossible to continue. Prices skyrocket on everything from subscriptions fees, marketing, materials, equipment and courier service.

I am not a negative Nelly....I am a reality Rita. Earning a living with art is ridiculously hard even if your work is exceptionally good and you are great at marketing yourself. Period.

I wasn't here for the start of the thread, so I haven't seen all 230+ posts, so I apologize if this has been said before.

Sometimes art doesn't sell because it's not the right market for your work. I joined here primarily as a place to put together a portfolio of my photographs to share with others. I have a Flickr account with thousands of images, but I wanted to put together an area just for photos that others might have an interest in. The idea of selling was just a novelty. The only photos I've sold are to people I know, and that's fine with me.

Of course we all have dreams that we'll be suddenly "discovered" and we'll be raking in the bucks. I'd love to be able to give up my day job in IT and focus on photography, but that will never happen.

I've often looked at the page of pieces that sold by others when I log in. What sells most often here seem to be images that are fairly minimalist. They look interesting in a small square on screen when the viewer first visits the site and don't have much complexity.

For a photographer doing largely landscape or nature shots, you'd (and I) would probably sell much more with a booth at an arts fair than expecting people to "find" you and buy your work. I may do that when I retire. In the meantime, I'll keep some photos here or switch to a service that's more oriented to displaying a portfolio. If I get a sale, that's nice, but it isn't going to pay the mortgage (or even the water bill).

For artists trying to sell digitized versions of their work, I would think the same would apply. If it looks interesting on an iphone case from 10 feet away, it just might sell here.

Good enough is a ambiguous adjective.

Al Franken, comedian and Minnesota senator believed '"I'm good enough, and by god I am good good enough(as he looks into the mirror repeating himself over and over) on a Saturday Night live skit where his character is a loser who wants to be a winner). He was a real winner indeed but wit was possibly more his self confidence in himself than
any particular political skills.

Great post! I feel there is always room for improvement. Every day is an opportunity to learn and grow. At least that is how I look at it. I have been on this site for a while, no sales. But, to be honest I haven't really taken the initiative to promote and market. (or maybe it just isn't that good) Well, until very recently. I'm optimistic that my work will pay off eventually. There are so many wonderfully talented artists on here it's hard to not compare myself to others. Art, however is very subjective and I keep trying to remind myself of that.

I've recently (starting in February) taken on the massive project of quality controlling my portfolio. My standards have changed since I first started here and quite frankly, quite a few of the images that were "good enough" at the time I posted them do not meet my current standards. I'm about halfway through the entire portfolio and at this point have culled around 200 out of the original ~1450 that were posted. Many of the ones that didn't get deleted have been re-processed utilizing skills I didn't have at the time. I've heard the conventional wisdom that you should never delete things because you don't know what someone will buy, but I want to be proud of every single image in my portfolio, so some just didn't make the cut. I started with the oldest images first and am working my way toward the newest, so in theory the second half should require less purging than the first. Onward and upward. :)

Let's face it, the net is literally littered with a time where anything can be labeled ART. The truth is that 99% of the work out there is just more "copy work" that has been done 1,000+ times by others for decades. It's not just sales that is a quest, but being NOTICED by the folks who can help get you "above the rest", and they are only interested in the 1% who show real talent and originality.

So really maybe you have got it right. "You aren't good enough", but then that begs to ask what was your objective to begin with?

you don't have to get above the rest, you just have to get noticed.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

I think to improve is always a good focus and competing with your last best work is enough. I am not culling yet. I am about quantity right now as well as quality. The time will come soon enough

I worry about this all the time! I just started posting my artwork on Facebook and "friends" told me to get on here.... Only one of my friends made a purchase, pillows no less. Lol. But I have been scared for decades that my stuff was too cartoony, and rough, and simply not good. I took a chance, and if it doesn't sell, I'm only out $30 so far. How do I know if I want to invest more$$$? How do I know if my work is good or if it sucks?

@deb invest time and not money. if it sells on time, then invest if you want. ideally only you know if your work stinks or not. for now at the very least - add more keywords, you have pretty much nothing.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Thank you Mike!

There is seldom an elephant in the room - the problem is usually the artist/photographer - and it might be crappy work you are producing - but most likely it's marketing and figuring out how to get people to come and look at your work.

Mike, "Getting noticed" can mean anything. Maybe you got "noticed" via some local pee wee art contest....lol.

Those who really get "noticed" can retire, because they have a big company produce and market their work nationwide, and maybe internationally.

We all want the "Elephant" in the room to be a big producer. Trouble is that this "Elephant" is also about to starve to death.

Oh i know tell me about it. I have posted since 2013 and im my best customer. Its sad, yes. And very pathetic. I even had majored in photography and the arts even though i made the grade in college .The true test would be if it sells. Fingers crossed, don't quit the day job just yet.

to get noticed in the big leagues - you need to know a person that knows a person. and from there you need to be able to talk it up.

locally you need to have work that people like and would want in their house (because some things are nice, but their are nat geo nice, not wall nice). the items should be more universal and not be very focused.

there usually will never be one single elephant. you need many elephants in many rooms, and they can't just be the ordinary grey kind, they have to be colored, stripes or dots. something different. you need your angle.

---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Sorry Mike to disagree with you. You don't really need to know someone who knows someone. You need to STAND OUT among the rest and THEN you get noticed.

i've seen a lot of art that would be best to be called an average photo go for thousands. how? they know rich people. you often don't have to stand out. peter lik... his work is good, but not $20,000 good, his work doesn't stick out other than the sheer size of the images. i wouldn't say his work sticks out.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

I know what you mean Mike. Another name you could stick in there is what's his name.....uh the guy who painted pretty cottage houses with the pretty lights.

You have to be above the "I could do that" masses. That's the first step - producing work that buyers believe is beyond their capabilities. Then there are the other steps of marketing and evaluating the market's needs.

Lik has the sales process down cold. He takes pretty pictures and works the sales with an aggressive sales forces, fancy galleries and works the business man at a conference or semi-rich guy on vacation angle with promises of investment returns. His market is people with disposable income who like bright shiny things but don't know much about art.

Well the thing is, it doesn't have to be good, it just has to sell.

wow that is some dense spamming...


its not what peter lik does now, what did he do to get into those circles?


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

I am sure Lik did a tone of smoozing, it fits his personality, he came from AZ, put on the crocodile dundee act, and got noticed, good for him, now if the rest of us could find what works best for our personalities we could all be selling $1000 photographs/paintings for half a million.

TL Mair
http://tlmair.com

Networking is critical. You have to have a proven track record of reliability and quality to play in the professional/big art world. There's the rare "outsider" that gets picked up as the darling of the day in the art world, but they're the .01% of the 1% that sees any success in art at all. No investor in the world is going out of their way to take a big risk on an unknown entity.

I suppose that is why I'm here. To hear from ones that do professionally, can I be in the same arena.I don't expect to make a living doing this in some part because I don't know if it's good enough. I hope to use this as a kind of portfolio and when I'm not so chicken****, print several and enter local shows.

I've kept an eye on the things that sell. Some I like, some I don't but can understand why they sell. Then others, not sure how to say it nicely, I can't for the life of me figure out who would buy it and why. It's made me think the "good" work doesn't matter. And as much as marketing is discussed in the community, perhaps thats what matters most?

In the end the a photo of a potato sold for over $1M. Ha, I might never figure it out!

I think about that sometimes...and then I check what's sold recently.

There's a lid for every pot.
We just have to find our lids.

I thought you were going to say we have to find some pot.

Happy 4/20, everyone!

I know that's why I'm trying to improve all the time.

The title of this threat is so negative, that if I were a shopper at FAA, I would just go to another site to shop.

It puts that subconscious thought that there are a lot of terrible artists here when in reality there is just a lot of art.

No one need respond because I doubt I'll ever click on this again.

I've tossed two portfolios over my lifetime. My latest group only numbers about 40, from a container of about 1,500,
over a 12 year gathering. I know these numbers are very low when compared to what I see on the FAA.

It's not that i don't like my other 1,500 it's just that they were images tried but failed - for whatever
reason, in my final analyses. I still dig through them on occasion. "5th ave" was found 3 years after,
at first I though it of poor design.

I prefer to think myself having, 10 keepers versus a body of 1,000, that once cast, I wonder about.
The group that I now have I have on display in my home and they remind me. The person who
was with me or how clean that spring air was that day, and often, melancholy, the passing of time.

I subscribe to slashing to the bone in keeping only what you like. Since it seems we keep what we may not
like, in anticipation that others may like it. I wonder where does that fit into your personal plan as an artist.

Art is all personal and sometimes another person like's it, but don't sell out trying to be liked by way of
commercialization, that's not a Fine Artist path.... (disclaimer) - Your needs may differ, you may
want to be a, "commercial graphic artist" and that is fine, by all means crank-it-out, but you may
want to question the quality due to having quantity, unless you are in that top 1%.

(LOL)
IMHO

Frank

Yes, but this is only one aspect of many. Look at what sells on here. It is pretty random and often downright weird. The quality often leaves a lot to be desired.

Search any subject. You get a lot of schlock. Tons of it with an occasional gem thrown in, but the images that come up first are old, old, old. That is a problem.

I have found by selling at fairs that selling has more to do with making connections of some sort than ultimate quality. People love looking at your best work, but generally buy something for some obscure personal connection to an image.

Your point is taken. I looked at one woman's site here yesterday. She had beautiful photos. Wow. Why isn't she selling? I am not sure why but I hit the enlarge square on one of her images. Gad. A ton of camera movement and inadequate equipment. What a waste. Sad. Reflects badly on other photographers here. Mike probably knows who I am talking about.

Keep after it. Rome wasn't built in a day.

While it's true that our images may suck, and of course it's always a good idea to work on your craft, I think there are actually two elephants in the room, the other elephant being that FAA's search engine is painfully lacking. I have no problems being found on a couple of other sites I'm on and selling my work at a rate that I'm quite happy with but it just doesn't happen all that often here and no wonder.

For an example I'll take my picture of yellow poppies, an image I just happen to have sold two prints of to a buyer on another site. When I do a search for "yellow poppies" here on FAA, I get some yellow poppies but mostly other colors of poppies and lots of flowers that aren't poppies at all. Now why is that? I have to go to page 11 before I find my photograph, which has "yellow poppies" in the title. Of course it's in the keywords too.

We have to be found before we can make sales. In order to be found we need a search engine that works properly.

Was it something I said? This discussion was a sticky yesterday...

The search engine works perfectly well

Artists key wording their work may not

Abbie, with all due respect, I keyword here exactly the same here as elsewhere. I've run my stuff through a site that checks your keywording and have come out with top marks.

If the search engine works so well here, why does it consistently return completely irrevelant items? (ie, tulips or Himilayan blue poppies when searching for yellow poppies).

Peggy, When I searched on "yellow poppies" I got lots of images of yellow poppies AND other poppies where the color yellow was a part of the composition, but may not have been the flower color. That's a perfectly valid use of both keywords "yellow" and "poppies" for those images.

Less frequently, people will keyword thier images incorrectly. Usually it's a valid use of the keyword, just not in the way you're thinking it should be used.

Thank you for your "say it like it is" attitude. I often question my skills as a photographer. My work has a limited audience I am well aware of this. And yes I do get pure joy just taking photographs not purely to sell. I will keep on keeping on and hope to keep getting better. There are many inspirational photographers on this site to aspire to be like.

Jana, you are right about finding inspiration from others' works here. No matter what I create that I think is the cat's meow, there is always someone who does it better. But that makes me try harder, really. I had a major attitude shift several years ago where I went from "I can't do anything right" to "why not?" My reasoning was, if others can do it, why can't I? I was able to become successful at a few ventures that way.

Thanks Patricia. I will keep your phrase in mind, "Why not me?". And I will try harder.

Sometimes it is that our work is not "good enough" - but why is it not good enough? is it the composition, the color, the lighting, the quality of the upload? Just what is wrong with our image? Most likely though - it is our sad marketing.

DIGITAL ABSTRACTS

It has to be marketing, because we all know there is no good or bad art, that all depends on the person searching for it. Something person x uploads, some may think wow that's junk. Then comes along Buyer Y wow that's amazing, different perspective something new, breath of fresh air.

Thats why i chuckle when i hear someone say the art or photos that are not good get shuffled way at the back of the pile. If that were the case then there must be a judge somewhere.

There is the Museum of Bad Art

I forgot how much I LOVED this thread!!

Selling with all the many accomplished artists here is difficult to begin with. A lousy portfolio certainly doesn't help. I recently went through my portfolio and ruthlessly cut about half the of what I had here. I also recategorized everything into new collections and revamped all my keywords. I am getting more views now and I feel better about what I'm selling. I do sell on FAA and with what I offered prior to this, it was a miracle I ever sold anything.

Lesson: Don't be married to every piece of art you've ever produced.

You do have to wonder. Is it lousy art or is it just the numbers inherent to a huge database of images like FAA? I may be wrong on exact numbers, but I'm thinking that there are in excess of 10 million images to choose from, probably at least a quarter million artists. It's hard to imagine that a commercial site would NOT include number of sales in its sort of images, so you need to find something in all this to help you to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, get enough sales so you're not on page 384 for a "snowy mountain" search.

All that makes "not that good" into something that's pretty hard to quantify. I'm a better judge of images than I am a creator of them and I have to admit that, when I look at the recent sales page, I often shake my head in disbelief at that people will buy, so it's obvious that some sales come about as a result of "quality" that's not what would be approved by a conservatory. It's that "eye of the beholder" thing coming up again, but coupled with previous sales, lucky keywords....heading into inscrutability. I wish I knew the answer, how to go out, shoot some snowy mountain pictures and have them come up on page 1 of that sort. Then my art truly would be good, page 10, so-so, page 223, damn, no chance.

Well my art is what it is, that said, I sold three at the Gallery Underground and 7 artworks at my last art show all last week...so go to Lisa-Kaiser.pixels.com for joyous eye catching art and leave me a note, share my images if you can and thank you so very much for your visit!

I always try and select only the best shot or shots from a photo shoot.

It's too easy to add extra images which don't really cut the same standard.
(Whatever level you may be at)

I believe a portfolio gets watered down in quality if you go for bulk images of poorer quality.

Pretty sure a potential customer will notice.

Very good points. I strive to push myself with every painting I do. I love to challenge myself! But yet I make sure I get absorbed into my subject and have a great, fun time rendering my subject. I love selling but the journey in my painting skill and technique are just as umportant.

I remember someone making a comment on a thread similar to this a few years back along the lines of "well not everyone paints duck ponds and poodles" haha I had a good chuckle at that one

Like an old rifle maker I worked for used to say - "A mamma alligator always likes her babies best". He was very much an artist of wood and steel, and had some interesting thoughts on life and art.

I have seen (talking only about photography) brilliant images that make me happy for the artist and sad because I am not that talented.

On the other hand, I've also seen some really bad photographs. To make matters worse, the photographer asks why he/she is not selling.

Well.......I would never ever tell them it's because your images are not good. Not my place.

The only casual advise I sometimes give is to tell the "untalented' photographer to go and study the truly amazing photographs presented here on FAA by the really good photo artists.

But then can an untalented photographer learn from the very best? Either you have the eye or you don't.

Do you think that, Robert? Or can some learn, 'the eye' also?

One thing we are not allowed to do is tell people their work needs improvement. Oh yeah ,we can say there is too much digital noise or the crop is showing a bit of the frame. But we can't say 'did you really want that green color cast on that photo?' The moderators shut you down fast for that unless the person asked for a critique in a very specific way. So to those new here and struggling I have always said to ask for a critique. Because if no one told you, you will not know. That doesn't mean you have to listen to the critics, it just means you know more about how people are perceiving your work. You can change or not.

As for me, I am gentle on myself as far as artistic ability. I know I am not Man Ray or Ansel Adams. I feel if I am attracted to take a photo, others will find it interesting too. Not everything I upload is what I would want at a gallery show. I don't worry about dilution. I worry I am holding back too much here. Just keep your best up front. Put nice images as the covers of the collections. And then give depth to the collections.

"Someday, everything is gonna be smooth like a rhapsody
When I paint my masterpiece" - Bob Dylan

It would be interesting to do a research project to find out the click path of buyers. One of the usual art school mantras is that "body of work" thing, that everybody, e.g., knows what Van Gogh's paintings look like and people have been to galleries where they see a room full of art by a specific artist; the body of work thing works there. Selling on line, however, seems to be a completely different beast. I have no proof of this, but I wonder if buyers find images because they are looking for someone by name, or whether they click through the menu options and go, e.g., from Wall Art to Metal Prints to Animal Prints, etc. If it's the latter, it is probably not that important to have a body of work in that art school sense, unless you can completely dominate Animal Prints based on sales and numbers.

There's another POD site that shall go unnamed and is quite small and probably on the way out, but on that one, I DO "own" a couple of search terms, as in showing up on the first couple pages after a click. Sales are better there for the same images that are on FAA, in spite of the moribund status of that site. I don't entertain the idea that it's me by name that anybody is looking for, or that they care about MY body of work, but when they do search for a content area where I am at top, they see my pictures before they get tired of looking. In a recent sale, I noticed that on the recent sales page, a person located in a town I know also bought a second image with the same keyword I had just sold, both of us sellers were equally obscure but visited the same location, which is also close to where the buyer lives. It's probably not random and it certainly is not fame.

I guess the study question on this is how buyers identify a purchase. I'd like to flatter myself that it's my reputation, but I seriously doubt that. How do buyers locate the one they like? I'm thinking that this would be a tedious study, identifying a click path that comes before a purchase, but it would be helpful in strategizing.

Abbie,
Yes, some can learn. I was one who did learn, but I studied the really good photographers (still do), joined a top-notch photography club (and won a gold medal for my 8x10 Color prints), attended many good classes on photography, etc.

So, yes some can go from being pretty awful to being pretty good (if not great).

The trick is to keep developing your "artistic" eye. After 40 years of being a photographer, I am still frustrated at my lack of top-notch talent.

i think you can develop an eye, but you have to be:

1. honest with yourself
2. critical of yourself
3. very observant of others and yourself
4. willing to experiment all the time.
5. willing to change your ways, equipment, and time of day for shooting.

often all it takes is going some place nice at 6am and getting the shots that way, but you have to be a light sleeper and know what your doing. a field of sunflowers at dawn has a totally different mood then one in the middle of the day or when its cloudy. and often that's what separates people who have they eye or one missing.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

I agree for the most part with the OP. However, I've been a photographer for over thirty years and have seen not that good pictures sell better than amazing pictures .. and the other way around ... what it mostly comes down to is marketing and resonating with YOUR audience. There is a great book out that has helped me create more business, its called 'Start With Why".

It's a balance between meaningful art and how you market. Check out this resent article:

“The Mona Lisa has a huge social media presence. Her picture is everywhere. But she doesn’t tweet. She’s big on social media because she’s an icon, but she’s not an icon because she’s big on social media.”

http://calnewport.com/blog/2018/10/28/the-mona-lisa-doesnt-tweet/

My art is about HAPPINESS !
I buy images that make me HAPPY!
IMHO: The Broken Buddha image makes me very sad.

Reality check 101

Follow your passion and create what you love. If artists only created for the almighty dollar than we would have a very poor world. Delight in the simple things life has to offer and never stop learning. Happy creating everyone!

I see what Frank sees. My most viewed, liked, favorited and commented on shot here has never sold. But I recently sold a shot of a plane being built. I can kinda see why that one sold, but it's not even my best plane being built photograph. I also sold a shot of a man in head to toe protective suiting using a blow torch to dismantle a rail car. So basically I have given up trying to figure out what will sell or not. If the shot is sharp, I'll probably load it here.

If I go to my Visitors page and see the posts that have the highest number of visitors it gives me an indication (even though some are bots) of my most popular posts. Perhaps I should take the top 10 and push them harder on SM.

Frank - In regard to “The Mona Lisa has a huge social media presence. Her picture is everywhere. But she doesn’t tweet. She’s big on social media because she’s an icon, but she’s not an icon because she’s big on social media.” - I think we would all recognize that there's a huge gulf between contemporary art that's worth buying or owning and pieces that are as culturally iconic as the Mona Lisa. ML has fame that precedes it, it's like the NY Yankees logo or the Coca Cola logo....everybody knows it. If you're cold and detached and uninformed about art, you might look at it and think that it's a portrait of a woman from centuries ago, but not know it was an icon. I can take you to my local art museum and show you hundreds of old portraits and they're all pretty good. I don't know why ML is iconic and they are not, but it is what it is. The more mystique if acquires, the better it looks, the more art teachers gush over it.

For us, people who are not hallowed by centuries of art schools, it's a much bigger hill to climb. There must be at least a billion or so digital images posted somewhere on something every day. We are constantly bombarded by images to the point that they stop having much impact. Some are good, some are not, but overstimulation is a factor in human perception. Many of them copy the compositional rules that were invented by the likes of DaVinci but they won't get in the Louvre.

Back to the theme, maybe my art as well as everybody else's really IS good, but it's on display in a world where you can see more good art than you will ever need or perceive. I look at movies and TV shows (even the ones that are damn bad) and appreciate that the people who make those are good at creating imagery and that's going by multiple frames per second, then you cut to a commercial that's well composed, then you go to FAA and see a bunch more of images that are mostly OK. I don't know what you can do to compete with that level of overstimulation when it's like going into a huge warehouse with hundreds of musicians, all playing different music on different instruments. It all just merges into a blur.

"There must be at least a billion or so digital images posted somewhere on something every day. We are constantly bombarded by images to the point that they stop having much impact."

Back in 2014 it was estimated at 1.8 billion per day and these days it's probably at least double that... so, a little bit of competition.

Of course, if you look at statistics that means over 1,800 images that could be classed as "one in a million" posted every day (or 1 every 48 seconds)... depressed yet?

;-)

~Richard
http://www.reevephotos.com

What motivates one person to buy a piece of art over another? Anyone's guess. Might as well talk about what makes people happy. Hint: Most people don't have a clue what makes them happy.

I do think finding a way to make a personal connection with potential buyers is most important and being a good artist makes that aspect easier. Eventually, you have to get that work in front of that buyer, otherwise there isn't a choice to be made. I've only been doing this since...January, so I'm still learning myself.

On sales, forget 'em. Easy for me to say. I have a full time job, but I do believe they're a bad goal to have. Choose better goals (like improving aspects of your chosen craft) and the sales part will likely follow organically, or at least I hope so!

Sometimes I wonder if my art is actually good. I know I would hang it up in my own place, but I also know I'm odd and not many people are my type of odd. I'm not quite sure how to target the right type of person the my art would resonate with. I just got a new camera to take better quality pictures of my art, so hopefully that will help.

For many years I didn't try to sell my photography because I felt it wasn't good enough or original enough or creative enough. I didnt want to spoil my hobby by turning it into a business.
Friends and family kept telling me I should offer my work for sale and that I was being falsely modest. When I learned about FAA I decided I have nothing to lose but time and $30. I think I do good work, but very few pieces compare to the really great artists I see here. I know I could do a lot more to market but I don't know if it would make a big difference and perhaps sub consciously I don't want to learn that my work just isn't quite good enough to make the grade. So when I do get a sale, especially when I don't know the buyer, I am absolutely thrilled. When I get more than a few votes in a contest it is a great affirmation. Bottom line is that I am disappointed in sales volume, but love all that I get out of FAA. Thank you Abbie, Sean, Suzanne, and all the forum contributors
PS I welcome any critiques and suggestions on how to improve my images.

Ira, I know exactly how you feel. We are all our own worst critics. One suggestion I have right off the top is to stop listening to your family and friends. Just because your photos are better than most of the cell phone snapshots they're used to they will tell you that you're the next Ansel Adams. The thing that helped me out the most was finding someone who would tell me my photos sucked, when in fact they did. Someone who was less concerned about hurting my feelings than they were about giving me an honest critique. That made me strive to be a better photographer. For what it's worth, I took a real quick peek at your photos and they look great!

As far are critiques goes, I have a hard time giving one because it's been my experience that far too many are looking for affirmation that their work is as awesome as they think it is, and not so much honest feedback on how they could improve their photos

As far as the original post goes, this is exactly why I refuse to participate in any of these "Like for Like" posts or groups. I know art is subjective, but I'm not going to like something I don't.

Ira I notice, with landscapes anyway, you shoot a lot during mid day harsh sunlight. While those pictures are good compositionally they could be so much better if you shot in the early morning/evening hours when the light is so much more pleasing. That could change them from good photos to great ones. I don't even pull my camera out during the sunny afternoons unless it is overcast with mostly clouds or a good mixed of clouds and sun. The same with your waterfalls. You would benefit from getting a good circular polarizer to cut reflection and ND filter to slow the shutter speed for smoother water. Otherwise i would say you know what you're doing.

No way this thread is 4 years old! LOL

the dating system on here has always confused me. things that i thought were 3 weeks old, sometimes are shown a 9 days. and i think this one might be a year old, but its not 4.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

I personally LOVE all the ones that are 48 years old!

that's when we all wore those bell bottoms and had afro styles... those were fun days.


---Mike Savad
http://www.MikeSavad.com

Time flies. It could be 4 years old but just doesn't seem like it. 4 years ago I was in grade school. I know it's definitely more than a year old.

Great point, Mark. All too often people new to photography show up "bright and early" at the crack of 10 a.m. and wonder why their photos don't look nearly as good as the person who photographed the same exact scene, but were there at 5 a.m. instead.

As far as I'm concerned, the most important thing an aspiring landscape photographer can do to improve their photography is to be there when Mother Nature is showing off.

>Maybe Your Art Just Isn't That Good - May be ...

> That good - Good for what? Compare to what?

Are there any suggestions for a way to validate with some certainty (how much certainty) that
(a) somebody's art it is not that good, or
(b) somebody's art it is not that good for something (for what), or
(c) somebody's art it is not that good compare to something (to what)?

Yuri, good points - how about another? What about: the art is good but perhaps the audience is not the right one? Don´t mean that in a rude way but it might be fruitless to try to sell castle images if the audience loves wildlife images ... (just for example)
That might eventually be something my images are falling under? ... It would at least explain a bit to me.

Edit: I still think and hope there is an audience out there for all kinds of themes, though.

Yuri, for the most part art is so subjective it's hard to say what really is good or bad. You know, that whole "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing.

So let's take photography, the only art I feel even remotely qualified to speak about. There simply are no redeeming qualities in a poorly composed, out of focus photograph shot in bad light, regardless of the subject. Unfortunately there is no shortage of photos being offered for sale here that check off 1, 2, or heaven forbid, all 3 of those boxes. Am I the greatest photographer to ever pick up a camera? Far from it. But I can tell the difference between a good photo and a bad one.

Hans, as a friend of mine likes to say, "there's an ass for every seat." One of the things that I think works so well here on FAA is that people who's art may fit into a very small niche market have a better chance of being discovered. Besides, who's to say that person searching for that wildlife image won't stumble across that castle image and fall immediately in love with it?

Thank you Jeff :o) That´s an uplifting thought, indeed :o)

Hans, do what you love, do it well, and people will find you. I think the worst thing any of us can do is change our art to please others in an effort to make it more marketable. I photograph what I love, post process the images the way I like, and if the buyers come, great. But if they don't that's ok too. I know a lot of what I photograph isn't really very marketable due to the subject matter. I really like middle of nowhere images, preferably shot in the winter, of mountain scenes that the only people who may have an emotional connection to are other people who may have hiked the mountain in the photograph. It is that emotional connection after all that more often than not gets people to break out their credit card.

But I will continue to hike into the mountains carrying all of my camera gear, followed by a long hike out in the dark, because those are the photos I want to make. To the point I made in my comment above, I will also do everything in my power to ensure that that photo is well composed, sharply focused, and shot under the best light Mother Nature has to offer, BEFORE I would ever consider offering it for sale.

Hans, do what you love, do it well, and people will find you

Jeff, that is precisely my approach. :o) I just somehow had hoped to be found (more often). Funny thing is - it worked when i was new to the site but the more i upload, the more i do to promote and to advertise the less i sell - it seems. Not complaining - just mentioning.

Hans, funny you should mention that. I have found that I do just as well, if not better, when I ignore this site as I've done when I first joined and used to play all the self promotion games. Which I now refuse to do. In fact, the only reason I've been so active lately is that I'm about 99% sure I'm not going to renew my Smugmug hosted site when it comes due next month, so I need to start uploading more here.

Once I do move everything worth moving over here, I will in all likelihood go back to mostly ignoring it. With the exception of the group I created the other day, and the occasional discussion. Though I will continue to avoid those discussions and groups where the sole purpose are the almost meaningless like for likes in hopes of moving up in the search rankings. Phew, that was a total off topic rant LOL!

Wow, this is a blast from the past. To clarify: I started this discussion four years ago (I think this is correct!) because of the frequent posts appearing on the forum from people who it seemed has bought a camera two weeks before and were expecting a steady flow of sales and cash to immediately roll in. I think in one of my earlier posts that I quantified 'good' in the sense of 'accomplished', as in made with a certain level of skill. The standard reply was (and still is) that any lack of sales is due to insufficient marketing. Marketing is part of the mix, of course, but when you upload to FAA or any other such website your art basically becomes a product that needs to be able to compete with work of an extremely high level. Jeff sums it up nicely I think when he says


There simply are no redeeming qualities in a poorly composed, out of focus photograph shot in bad light, regardless of the subject. Unfortunately there is no shortage of photos being offered for sale here that check off 1, 2, or heaven forbid, all 3 of those boxes. Am I the greatest photographer to ever pick up a camera? Far from it. But I can tell the difference between a good photo and a bad one.

Might there be a market for such imagery? Maybe, but sloppy beginner's work is going to be a much harder sell than work that is the result of years of trial and error, dedication, failure and hard work. It takes years and years to become a decent photographer/painter etc. This post is meant as an invitation for people to critically self-assess their work and maybe work on improving their skills rather than wasting time and money trying to sell a subpar product. Your art is your art, period. If you want to go down to your local duck pond in horrible mid-day light to take dozens of near-identical photos and upload them in the hopes of making a sale, more power to you. But the photographer showing up at that same duck pond at dawn or dusk repeatedly until he or she has that perfect shot will have a greater chance of selling because it reflects dedication and skill.

"out of focus photograph shot in bad light" -- I have one of those and it's my all-time favorite photo from own portfolio of photos!



I am a better painter than a photographer by far and away, and it is what I sell most of on this site, but I enjoy taking photos and playing with them. And I can't resist uploading them to FAA afterward just for kicks.

That is indeed a very cool photo Lise, but this does not really fit the bill of the type of work/artist this thread is aimed at. This reminds me of Hieronymus Bosch. Out of curiosity, has it sold and would you be willing to spend money on marketing this?

Dean, well said. I think one trap that beginning photographs all fall into is that they listen to their family and friends. Too often family and friends will tell you that anything just slightly better than the snapshots they're used to seeing are the greatest photos they've ever seen, and you'll be the next Ansel Adams.

Maybe there is a market for amateurish photos, but you're again spot on that a well composed photo that's been well processed going to be a much easier sell.

One thing that helped me avoid the friends and family trap was to find someone in the local art community who, to put it bluntly, was willing to look at my work and tell me I sucked. I'll be completely honest in saying that I have no idea where this idea came from. All I know is the woman who took the time to look at my work gave me a lot of excellent feedback, the most important being that my images weren't ready to be unleashed on the public. It took years of getting to know my camera like the back of my hand, making it do what I want not settling for whatever the camera thought was best. Countless 3a.m. drives to the seacoast, numerous hikes starting at midnight so I could be on top of some remote mountain for sunrise, and the willingness to do it over and over and over again until I had the photo I wanted.

In short, it's hard enough being seen, so we should all strive to post work that's good to the point where once a potential buyer stumbles upon an image they don't want to look any further.

It's an interesting topic. Whenever I log in here, I make a practice of scrolling through all of the recent sales, picking out one person and looking at their portfolio and numbers. In regard to their "best" stuff, of course that's a matter of taste, but, suffice to say and not mentioning names, I often see images sell that completely baffle me.

Then, when I look at the numbers and sales, I see that it's at least possible that someone just started and friends or family bought a picture or that the artist is buying their own stuff, but it's someone who has 900 page views, so it doesn't exactly establish a track record.

Then...there are people who sell consistently, who have a theme and a style. Somehow they have engineered a market...good for them.

Then, I look specifically at somewhat realistic photos that sell. From experience with our local camera club, having attended many critical and judgement sessions by "experts" (whatever that means, but they do have credentials), I see that photos that sell mainly do NOT meet the muster of people with gallery jobs or art school degrees.

So what does constitute best work or good enough, or Mom will buy a copy, or God Only Knows, or is it only a matter of numbers, search criteria and presentation sequence? It certainly isn't anything that's easily quantifiable or I would have quantified it already, but I can only see part of it being the question of being "Good".

Dean, you asked "Out of curiosity, has it sold and would you be willing to spend money on marketing this?"

Dean, I get why you asked this question. Let's put it this way. I would try to sell this work in a gallery that was geared towards innovation or contemporary art ("art that makes a statement") ... there are galleries that cater to those kinds of clients. That would be my best bet for marketing this image: a gallery already in the business of selling work like this.

As for marketing it myself on-line? Not so likely, ever. Have I sold an FAA version of this print? No. Is it likely to sell on FAA with just the traffic that hits the site? Definitely not. Is it on the front page of my FAA site? No, it is fairly buried towards the back.

It just sits as part of my portfolio of fantasy/wacky images, but I like it because it has more grit to it (and I want potential buyers to know I am capable of more grit and messages than pure fantasy images portray).

Hope that makes sense.

I am new to the FAA community. I am truly honored to be among gifted and talented comrades (I used this word because sometimes it is a battle. :) It is good to have fellow artist who can provide "constructive" criticism to help each other grow. Thank you. In this profession, we must have crocodile skin because everyone will have a different opinion about our work. Take the good and use it to improve and throw out the negative part that only tears down. It is also good to receive a fresh perspective from those who are not artists. It’s amazing what we will receive from them as well. During my undergraduate years, my art teacher would make us post our work on the wall to be critiqued by the entire class. She told the class, "if something is not working or not fitting, put it aside but do not throw it away. It can be reused in another composition." This is why art is subjective and constantly evolving. Be confident in the inspirations that burst forth from your heart. Widen your tent curtains, strengthen your stakes! Don’t hold back! Someone will love it! Someone is waiting for it! I am one of them who admire you!

Though I don't claim to be the best photographer around, some of the comments here remind me of some on the forums from a micro stock site I also contribute to. Like here, some folks will put up a few photos and then a week (or month or two) later, ask "why am I not selling?". Granted there is a difference between a fine arts photograph and one used for stock ( for the latter, things like copy space are important. The site makes a big deal over people whose tattoos show as they'd need a release from the person who did the tattoo, not just a model release). However there is overlap as well (Is the image well composed? Tell a story? Color balance ok? If there's a horizon present, is it level? And so forth).

One comment I recall from one of the more experienced contributors to the site (and forums) is that he he doesn't know what will sell, but knows what doesn't/won't.

As I hopefully improve, and post more images, will I go back and delete some of the "what was I thinking?" photos, maybe.

Great in sight in your post Dean! Thank you so much for taking the time to say it. I am always working to improve my photography skills, and others should as well!

Jacquline - " I am truly honored to be among gifted and talented comrades (I used this word because sometimes it is a battle. :) It is good to have fellow artist who can provide "constructive" criticism to help each other grow."

Having witnessed and been subjected to plenty of criticism (the constructive part being debatable), I realized that you have to take it with a grain of salt and only half-believe any of it. Critics seem to come in two varieties, those that don't actually DO any art themselves but just criticize others and those that actually DO art and are willing to give you suggestions.

The weakness of the professional critic is that they don't actually do anything themselves except criticize, have no skin in the game, have seen way too much art, have become jaded, only search for the weaknesses and are looking for a quick and witty response that often belittles the art. I've seen this way too many times to count and not just on my stuff. "Plod on, would be OK but for something wrong, not bad, derivative, seen this before, good idea with weak execution, good execution of a bad idea"....all mantras of critics.

The weakness of the fellow artists is that they weight their comments based on how close you come to their version of art. Eventually it becomes how much your art looks like theirs....."what you need is more cowbell".

In either case, when it comes to posting on line like FAA, the only critic that really counts for anything is the one with the credit card.

What the art and music world needs more of is critics of critics. Subject them to glowering disapproval and see how their egos hold up.

Just an observation. There are millions of artists the world over trying to sell billions of images. Good luck.

And why buy Art? I can copy any image off the internet even from FAA and make a good 8x10 print ready to frame for free. I don't because I prefer high priced art books.

Then there is the in group of artists who are sponsored by high price galleries, auctions, agents, museums. Chances are you will never be invited to this in group.

I suppose if you try hard enough you can get a small gallery to show your work, but you may lose money on the deal after you pay for the framing, etc.

What's left for the average Art amateur? Local art fairs, friends, family, Then again you may be the type who promotes herself to the max at coffee shops, local pubs, etc.

My suggestion keep your day job and be a part-time artist

Or find a job as an illustrator, photographer, graphic designer. That's what I did for 25 years.

"Of all the photos you take, only a handful will be truly remarkable." So true, Dean Harte.

Although I've been making photos for most of my life, I feel like I've only picked up speed in the past year or so, and I don't even feel comfortable showing images that I used to be proud of just a few years ago. It's important for us to be honest with ourselves, constantly grow, and constantly seek out opportunities to learn. I've already been inspired to up my game by seeing some of the masterful art here on FAA. And I look forward to those rare moments when I upload my photos to my big screen and know I've captured something really remarkable!

Thanks for starting this awesome thread, Dean!

Ditto post

I hate this thread, but find the responses really good.

I don't like the negativiy in the title and all the know-it-all advice at times.

My experiece of selling art has been consistent and yet still a loss. I may make money but lose quality time. I may lose money and time, but create an amazing artwork.

I am at best a bad artist and yet in the real world gallery setting, I sell. There is no rhyme or riddle or logic for this. Some extremely gifted fellow artists are much more talented than me and their paintings simply sit there unpurchased. I don't get it, but I know they're good at what they paint or capture!

I think it is a metaphysical or illogical thing. Somehow if I follow my muse, I sell and if I take a work shop and learn something on canvas, that is a guarentee no sale.

It is almost like the closer I get to learning how to paint, the less sales. Lol

I don't exactly like threads like this but they seem to be unavoidable. As long as there's no God-like quantifiable standard for what IS art and also what is good or great art, it will be part of the landscape that there are self appointed or hired or educated critics. It just goes with the turf....or, as a recall saying in a sarcastic huff, "opinions about art are like a*sholes...everybody has one and they all stink". Sarcasm aside, I have to get a grip on the fact that the type of images I have either sold or had comments on are some of the ones I like least or that feel like low hanging fruit. Maybe those people don't get it or maybe I don't get it...not sure.

These sort of conversations generally lead me to a thought experiment. All of the art in all of world's art museums and galleries just evaporated one day, leaving us with millions of empty rooms and buildings. Just WHAT would we use to repopulate those buildings? Would it be anything like what was there? Would we try to replicate DaVinci or VanGogh or would we move forward? Who says what goes into those buildings, especially if all the critics and experts also evaporated?

I get a tad bit tired of seeing the threads claiming that if I don't have regular sales here then my artwork must suck. I try not to read them much of the time but then the temptation to see just what they think I'm doing wrong overrides my common sense. Still, it makes me grit my teeth whenever I see the title of this thread or a couple of similar ones here on the forum.

I personally don't think "good" art necessarily = a sale, or vice versa. Most buyers are looking for something that's MEANINGFUL to them....something that makes them FEEL something. Really subjective.

I've learned over time not to delete the images I don't think are worthy... because those are the ones that end up selling! Most of my best images have NEVER sold... and some of my worst images (in my opinion) have sold.

Good.

It is good that this thread makes you think. Or makes you look again. Or makes you actually think about it and then defend your work. It is, in my mind, doing just the thing I like about it and why, when Dean first started it, I added it to the marketing links I share

There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. A diamond with a flaw is worth more than a pebble without imperfections. Sometimes we strive so hard for perfection that we forget that imperfection is happiness. Even imperfection itself may have its ideal or perfect state.

Robert Frank Gabriel said this,

"And why buy Art? I can copy any image off the internet even from FAA and make a good 8x10 print ready to frame for free. I don't because I prefer high priced art books."

Yeah... you can. But if the image is really made for a 60" x 40" presentation... you'll miss all the glory of the work. That is... the details.

I've come to the place where virtually everything I attempt to do with a camera is with larger scale in mind. If it fits a smaller setting that they cannot afford... they can have the 8" x 10" theft.

Falling into the trap of getting work out fast is the downfall of many. I know that it has affected me over the years. And I'm slow compared to others who set up their manipulation programs for cookie cutting and then posting as quickly as possible. The same scene from one photo to the other but 5 feet over.

I see my elephants in the room. I'm striving hard to eliminate them.

GLEN says...."Yeah... you can. But if the image is really made for a 60" x 40" presentation... you'll miss all the glory of the work. That is... the details."

You are correct. I was an old fashion street photographer so all my candid images of people were taken fast, and none of my images would be printed at more than 8x10.

I have had almost no side ways comments from the public. I have had praise from people I had never met before. I have written by hand some 1000 designers, and 900 of them connected on Linkedin. I have 15,400 followers on Twitter, and I think people only drop me for one reason, a few per month, because I am not speaking their native language sometimes. I have all new people following me on Twitter as well.

But that is not making me viable sales wise.

That mainly has to do with where my focus has been. Until last November, I was making art.

Marketing is a different hat.

I do not want to wear both at the same time.

I have been here since fall 2014, my visitor count is actually on the low side. JMO

I think the elephant in the room needs to buy a 60" canvas.

I must add, my ideas on art do not match the general public's conceptions for art. Where I make derivative art, the public has been told that is taboo. Where I make fine art, the public is not buying museum art. Where I make art that is not defined, the public thinks the artist must get into extreme detail.

My ideas and art in my estimation are rare. But then again I am offering open editions.

If modern art is any indicator, the idea can sell. Does sell, and can be as extreme as seaweed in a net tacked to the wall. By that standard my art is absolutely superb.

Dave

Good to see this thread is still going after all this time. I would like to state again that this is not me criticising anyone else, but rather an invitation to criticise ones self. And to be realistic in terms of expectations when it comes to sales. Your art is your art, if you will. But when you upload it to FAA or any other sales platform competition is just a click away. That is perhaps more so the case for photographers than it is for painters. If you are going to invest time and money in marketing, you'd better make sure your product (yes, when you are trying to sell your work it becomes a product) is up to scratch.


Ever heard of a photographer called Sebastião Salgado? He spent eight years (!) traveling the world for his photo book Exodus. I've seen his work when his exhibition came to town and almost all of it was absolutely breathtaking. He also shot it on film, so no photoshop or anything. You can see some of his images here:

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=exodus+photo+salgado&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjW9N3xx43hAhUBgI8KHTc3CnUQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1536&bih=715


Ever heard of Alan McFadyen? It took him 6 years, 4,200 hours and 720,000 photos to get his perfect photo. Read more here:
https://www.boredpanda.com/perfect-kingfisher-dive-photo-wildlife-photography-alan-mcfadyen/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

Now contrast that to someone who has had a DSLR for two months, goes to the zoo for a day, uploads 300 generic photos of animals and then asks 'why am I not selling?'. I don't think that marketing is an honest or constructive answer here. Properly learning the craft of photography takes time and hard work and instead of encouraging someone to waste time and money to try and monetize something generic a better advice would be to go out and shoot whenever you can, practice, fail, learn and perhaps accept that your skill level is simply not such that you will make regular money through your art, ever.

Let's say you love food. You notice other people are making money by preparing and selling food. You go to the supermarket, buy a cheap loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter and then set up in the food truck district, with the shop to the left of you selling wonderful Korean kimchi taco's and the one to your right handmade, authentic Chinese noodles. And hey, surprise surprise you are not selling. Would the anser really be marketing?

I think every artists goes through the thought process, of "is my art good enough". But good enough, how, if an artists continues to work on their craft and idea's and works, works and continues to work. They will get better, and be good enough for someone! Not all art is good for everyone. I myself am a very poor judge of my work. Often times pieces that I dislike and only show to relatives and really don't consider posting. People go nuts over... so now I just post everything. Looking through my on-line portfolio are some real stinkers to me at
least. But then someone in the world buys a print, or apparel item. Artist should never compare themselves to other artists. Just work, and continue to create to feed your soul!
Clyde J. Kell Art Works

You could always start with the idea:

"My Art Is The Greatest Art Ever!!!"


... it's just that not enough people know that!!

Jack says it. The art is not the problem. It's the rest of the world that's the problem. Just get rid of them and artists have no problems. No more customers but also no more rejection.